tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post197594848886707064..comments2024-02-25T08:16:25.546-08:00Comments on Exurban Nation: RailigionRob Dawghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10042154106850545479noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post-18419797453562711262007-05-29T13:00:00.000-07:002007-05-29T13:00:00.000-07:00Robert,what you fail to see is that infill and red...Robert,<BR/><BR/>what you fail to see is that infill and redevelpment will push thwe city higher along this line. TOD will bring in higher density redevelopment in low density neighborhoods and commercial areas will expand. <BR/><BR/>Do not look at it as a graft but as a growth motivator. Especially as gas prices go up and the population gets older living near this line will be a more attractive choice in where to live instead of being holed up in some far flung subdivision which is unserved by transit. In your 40-60s it is fine but some peopleAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post-84895160040404245742007-05-29T12:51:00.000-07:002007-05-29T12:51:00.000-07:00"Oh", they used to say, "LA is too spread out for ..."Oh", they used to say, "LA is too spread out for light rail. There is no downtown", they said.<BR/><BR/>It turns out that LA is spread out BECAUSE of rail. LA grew according to the placement of rail lines. The same rail system that GM et al conspired to remove, and replace with buses.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post-25439109163443750392007-05-29T12:36:00.000-07:002007-05-29T12:36:00.000-07:00@King Friday, what kind of food do you like? I li...@King Friday, what kind of food do you like? I lived in Phoenix for over half my life.<BR/><BR/>If you think the downtown is anemic now, you should have seen it before America West Arena was built. Bank One Ballpark added some traffic as well. <BR/><BR/>But you are correct, there really is no downtown.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post-24622950021140003702007-05-29T12:19:00.000-07:002007-05-29T12:19:00.000-07:00amen bob dawg. holy chrissakes, I have NEVER been ...amen bob dawg. holy chrissakes, I have NEVER been to a more spread out combobulation that PHX. There really isn't a downtown, which is kinda unique for a city that size.<BR/><BR/>Speaking of which, any EN'ers have advice for neat out of the way restaurants in PHX.<BR/><BR/>I could hit Marconi Grill or Jamba Juice, but well, Queen Sarah actually has culinary taste and despises chains.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post-55220251301359527412007-05-29T12:10:00.000-07:002007-05-29T12:10:00.000-07:00Metro and Anon vice PHX:The specific problem is tw...Metro and Anon vice PHX:<BR/><BR/>The specific problem is twofold. Phoenix is not dense enough and it is too big already to graft on a fixed route transit network. 20 years ago and Phoenix could be the Boston of the Southwest. Now the best they can hope for is Atlanta without water.Rob Dawghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10042154106850545479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post-42140119227173281392007-05-29T12:07:00.000-07:002007-05-29T12:07:00.000-07:00and again these types of ail projects getrify area...<I>and again these types of ail projects getrify areas and make others generally more desirable, except in Robert's eyes.</I><BR/><BR/>Not at all. Re-investment cannot help but improve an area. Just understand this is a subsidy not a case of expecting returns. There is noplace in the US where passengers can be expected to come even close to paying operating expenses. Think about what transit agencies call operating expenses and tell me you wouldn't love to have that deal for an auto.Rob Dawghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10042154106850545479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post-11426110373917036212007-05-29T12:02:00.000-07:002007-05-29T12:02:00.000-07:00...other than the underwater sections, I’m not par...<I>...other than the underwater sections, I’m not particularly worried about being in a high-speed train during an earthquake (anymore than many other places).</I><BR/><BR/>I are a ingineer. I'd wish to be in a BART or LAMTA Red LIne tunnel in a big quake. Not even an issue AFAICT. <BR/><BR/><I>Rob Dawg, I wish you would stop railing on rails;).</I><BR/><BR/>I -love- rails. I sing their praises to the high heavens. Here we have near two centuries of uncontested success that in no small part contributed to this nation's previous uncontested preeminence. Why would I bust on rail? moving cotton, coal, copper, cars... great. Absolutely no question, efficient and sustainable. What you think you see as an anti-rail stance is one of my questioning the claims of passeger rail transit advocates. HUGE difference.Rob Dawghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10042154106850545479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post-65641576335853592862007-05-29T11:52:00.000-07:002007-05-29T11:52:00.000-07:00@MetroplexualMy point is that there is no real den...@Metroplexual<BR/><BR/>My point is that there is no real density in the Phoenix area. Phoenix builds out, not up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post-60918743156531408882007-05-29T11:50:00.000-07:002007-05-29T11:50:00.000-07:00anonymous 11:14 AM,I am not advocating railing the...anonymous 11:14 AM,<BR/><BR/>I am not advocating railing the whole region, but areas with densities high population and that are destinations already make sense.<BR/><BR/>Mesa, Tempe, downtown and skyharbor strung on a line makes a whole lot of sense. Just getting airport employees too use it will be a plus like they do in ATL. and again these types of ail projects getrify areas and make others generally more desirable, except in Robert's eyes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post-82144338779446433542007-05-29T11:45:00.000-07:002007-05-29T11:45:00.000-07:00As far as BART goes, I completely agree with Mouse...As far as BART goes, I completely agree with Mouse and Pencil. However, other than the underwater sections, I’m not particularly worried about being in a high-speed train during an earthquake (anymore than many other places).<BR/><BR/>9:54 AM, R-Boy, Me, too!<BR/><BR/>Rob Dawg, I wish you would stop railing on rails;).Akubihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05214321836465499032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post-41680980224892127052007-05-29T11:16:00.000-07:002007-05-29T11:16:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Sprezzaturahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00154324593024175660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post-68609586863426033442007-05-29T11:14:00.000-07:002007-05-29T11:14:00.000-07:00@MetroplexualThe Phoenix area has problems that ar...@Metroplexual<BR/><BR/>The Phoenix area has problems that are difficult to overcome. Simply put, any kind of fixed rail system in Phoenix is doomed to be an expensive failure.<BR/><BR/>The city of Phoenix alone is 575 square miles. <BR/>Mesa is 125 square miles. <BR/><BR/>Scottsdale is 184 square miles.<BR/><BR/>Altogether, Maricopa County is 9,224 square miles. (About 500 square miles larger than the entire state of New Jersey)<BR/><BR/>Urban sprawl and fixed rail lines don't mix.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post-57948768759414132212007-05-29T11:08:00.000-07:002007-05-29T11:08:00.000-07:00Peripheral Visionary said...Rob: I won't comment o...Peripheral Visionary said...<BR/><I>Rob: I won't comment on this specific proposal, but the fact that the transportation authority is doing a cost-benefit analysis for a rail project is more than what typically happens for a road project, where there is not even a question of break-even (unless it's a toll road), and ridership numbers and projected traffic patterns are nothing more than bad guesses.</I><BR/><BR/>You are confusing two separate processes. Transit proposals are required to perform economic benefits analyses and include any benefits in their proposals. Roads projects are forbidden from including economic benefits for various reasons. The ridership/useage projections for new transit projects are horrible. I tend towards "criminally misleading" but hold my tongue to merely "unrealistically optimistic." Roads traffic projects however are usually very accurate, single digit accuracy or better. The difference is difficult to explain. Roads (excepting pork barrel) need demonstrate existing unmet need before even being considered. <BR/><BR/><I>Why does rail have to turn a profit when roads can be a money pit?</I><BR/><BR/>For the overwhelming majority of roads capacity projects they are cash positive endeavors for near ever level of governance. That seems hard to believe but it is true. <BR/><BR/>No one is asking rail to break even; Has never been even a remote possibility. Rail never ever even addresses capital expenditures and with few exceptions makes even 1/3rd of its' operating costs via user fees. <BR/><BR/><I>Also, there's a very real investment issue to it. The old rail lines built by the coolies (is that a P.C. term?) and the Irish have returned whatever their cost was many times over.</I><BR/><BR/>Quite true. Not just for the railroads but everyone benefitted. Investment in mobility always pays dividends. The problem is that CAHSR costs far more than any potential return justifies. Put $45.3 billion bearing interest at 6% and you pay for 50 million plane tickets without touching the principal with no operating costs and significant returns in taxable activity. <BR/><BR/><I>Unfortunately, we weren't far-sighted enough to secure larger rights-of-way for future use before land prices went to the ceiling, so new road projects and rail projects are equally, horrifically, expensive.</I><BR/><BR/>Oh but "we" were foresighted. The railroads were granted huge swaths of land surrounding their rights-of-way. That's why their names are still a century and more later tied to wealth and power.Rob Dawghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10042154106850545479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post-80802829500501041382007-05-29T10:33:00.000-07:002007-05-29T10:33:00.000-07:00@R-boyBART is about the same footprint as a train,...@R-boy<BR/><BR/>BART is about the same footprint as a train, but you have to add in the concrete bed that the rails lie on, which is what makes it different from traditional rail. You also have to have the Fed mandated safety wall, which wides it, and BART is two tracks, one in each direction. So realistically, the track is about the same footprint as a two lane road - and BART also goes underground or up on trestles. <BR/><BR/>The issues they have with it is, they claim it will negatively effect their housing values, along with increased crime, traffic, pollution (they had the balls to claim that, because BART is electric, and more electricty means more pollution), and my favorite, it would be "an eyesore".<BR/><BR/>I live a block from BART. I cannot hear it, and it's surrounded by trees on the stretch of track i live near, so you can't see it - but i can hear the freeway 3 blocks away.<BR/><BR/>I imagine even if they could defeat the reasons they listed, they'd find ways with the environmental impact or some such. They just don't want it, and refuse to allow it. You can get to Dublin now, but you have to go out to Oakland, then south, then east, about 4 minutes travel time longer than it should.<BR/><BR/>I'd love it if they push it further west past the city and hit Ocean Beach and Golden Gate Park, the zoo, or the Presidio/FortPoint/Golden Gate Bridge.Mouse And Pencilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05985053656245070076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post-55382343095979626022007-05-29T10:32:00.000-07:002007-05-29T10:32:00.000-07:00Gee whiz. All this exotic fancy talk. I don't ev...Gee whiz. All this exotic fancy talk. I don't even think there's rail transit around here. I've never seen a train station, but I haven't been looking. The population density is about 0 and shrinking locally, though. I have heard of people driving great distances to catch a train. High-speed rail transit is something that exists only on the TV, like Iraq or THE GRIM ADVENTURES OF BILLY AND MANDY or weight gain that <B>ISN'T YOUR FAULT.</B>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post-90728815064464892042007-05-29T10:26:00.000-07:002007-05-29T10:26:00.000-07:00Re: Galina's $1000/week demandHow's this for a swe...Re: Galina's $1000/week demand<BR/><BR/>How's this for a sweet deal: What if the $2589 (or whatever he earned in the first week) doesn't carry forward to the next week? I.e., he has to have at least $1000 a week coming in every week--and if he earns $10000 in a week, it doesn't let him off the hook for ten weeks. This seems more fair, and by fair I mean difficult (also, it would speak to the goal of a stable income).segfaulthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14824952920552637135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post-24973574714090306252007-05-29T10:16:00.000-07:002007-05-29T10:16:00.000-07:00R-Boy"I'd LOVE a high speed rail to LA...but earth...R-Boy<BR/>"I'd LOVE a high speed rail to LA...but earthquakes worry me. I don't want to be on a train going that fast if a decent one hits."<BR/><BR/>True. Though as we've all seen, an earthquake manages a fair amount of carnage on freeways as well. That aspect of engineering is well and truly of the 'hail Mary' type. You hope the modern infrastructure you live in will survive but it is a game of chance in the final analysis. But I reckon, with some statistical certainty, that golf is dangerous in terms of lightening strikes! Or more soberly, tsunamis on idyllic tropical beaches in Thailand. We all live with the grim hand of an actuarian calculating our odds!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post-48602608584876598692007-05-29T10:09:00.000-07:002007-05-29T10:09:00.000-07:00Feasibility is a very complex question and I like ...Feasibility is a very complex question and I like to see non-biased analysis of the high speed rail. <BR/><BR/>My understanding of the Calif High Speed rail (and I have not done extensive research) is that independant analysis says it is a boondoggle, but its supporters have managed to use some donations to get it in a perpetual funding for analysis process.<BR/><BR/>Robs quite and dirty numbers say it is not going to work, but further analysis may disagree. Right now I do not take CHSRA as credible sourceAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post-18949219817591250162007-05-29T09:54:00.000-07:002007-05-29T09:54:00.000-07:00Whats the dead space that gets taken up on a rail-...Whats the dead space that gets taken up on a rail-line? 10ft? 20ft?<BR/><BR/>Like I know. Hey DC has one of the most effective Mass transit systems, and its completely gridlocked at the stations from 530-630 pm. <BR/><BR/>All in favor of wifi and MASSIVE FOCUSED telecommuniting raise their hand.<BR/><BR/>Me!R-Boyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10345932760522001935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post-89980655331460107472007-05-29T09:51:00.000-07:002007-05-29T09:51:00.000-07:00I'd love it if BART were expanded, and buses and s...I'd love it if BART were expanded, and buses and shuttles to stations improved - I traveled on the London Tube and buses in high school, and the freedom of being able to get to just about any point of metropolitan London is incredible freedom.<BR/><BR/>The problem is of course, the NIMBYs in the Bay Area. BART/the state had acquired the Iron Horse trail, which goes from Walnut Creek to Dublin, which parallels the 680 corridor, and it would be a welcome and needed extension of BART. However, the rich folks in the Danville/Alamo fought it tooth and nail and pulled every string they could to defeat it, even though BART said that they could run the line underground or in ways that noise would be negligible.<BR/><BR/>Meanwhile, the entire 680 corridor is a mess of traffic jams and sound walls and pollution.<BR/><BR/>Granted, they've destroyed the view of the valley with McMansions...<BR/><BR/>I'd LOVE it if they'd run BART up to Napa and the Wine country, I'd take that trip weekly to bike ride. No WAY that will ever happen.<BR/><BR/>I live a block from a BART station and ride it often, it's a great system, if pricey, but that cost is much better than sitting in the traffic jams, or dealing with the horrible drivers and taking my life into my hands dealing with drunk drivers and the uninsured.<BR/><BR/>I'd LOVE a high speed rail to LA...but earthquakes worry me. I don't want to be on a train going that fast if a decent one hits.Mouse And Pencilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05985053656245070076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post-61109862237526439732007-05-29T09:45:00.000-07:002007-05-29T09:45:00.000-07:00Lurker:"It looks like it is state funded (politica...Lurker:<BR/>"It looks like it is state funded (political appointees) <BR/>Its job is to build a high speed rail. Not to determine if one is feasable."<BR/><BR/>Well, I think the political appointees were put in place by elected representatives. And that being said, what isn't managed by political appointees? Roads. Schools. Military. Airports. Hospitals. Police. Emergency Services. I'm not being sarcastic, but that is the system we all have agreed works best (though I'll concede it often doesn't).<BR/><BR/>One of the big fallacies is that road transport is cheap but rail is expensive. That has more to do with the nature of funding of those respective modes of transport than the efficiency of transport. A long haul truck operates on publicly funded highways. <BR/><BR/>The point being, that quite often the costs to the public purse are pretty opaque. <BR/><BR/>Feasibility is a pretty complex question when applied to public transit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post-36036430910251493682007-05-29T09:31:00.000-07:002007-05-29T09:31:00.000-07:00A huge increase in potential ridership, and the th...A huge increase in potential ridership, and the thing isn't even built yet! What is not to love?<BR/><BR/>Thanks for doing your part to advance the state of the art, and help make California a more livable place, Rob. When I drive the Ventura Freeway, I think of you. And your fellow neanderthals who blocked the improvemnts on that road.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post-56502707401231802002007-05-29T09:28:00.000-07:002007-05-29T09:28:00.000-07:00initial lookupswww.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/It looks...initial lookups<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/" REL="nofollow">www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/</A><BR/><BR/>It looks like it is state funded (political appointees) <BR/>Its job is to build a high speed rail. Not to determine if one is feasable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post-50392016367051351732007-05-29T09:18:00.000-07:002007-05-29T09:18:00.000-07:00""Where does the funding for these studies come fr...""Where does the funding for these studies come from?<BR/>Who is making the money on these studies?<BR/><BR/>My suspicion is these guys are ripping off far more money than Casey ever will.""<BR/><BR/>Alternatively, you could actually look into these things yourself before jumping to preconceptions. <BR/><BR/>Just an odd thought...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7514357.post-2630612609026319242007-05-29T09:15:00.000-07:002007-05-29T09:15:00.000-07:00Clarification: The GO system serves metro Toronto ...Clarification: The GO system serves metro Toronto which is about 5 million or so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com