Thursday, December 27, 2007

12 of 360

Costa Mesa's policy results in 360 deportations
Focus on immigration status of jail inmates began a year ago. Other area communities are following the city's lead.
By Jennifer Delson
Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

December 27, 2007

In the year since Costa Mesa became the first Southern California city to have a federal immigration officer at its jail full time, 360 suspects who were in the country illegally have been deported.
...
Hayes said the problem is that some of these people will sneak back into the United States. Already, 12 have been rearrested, he added.

_________________
If 12 get rearrested within a year how many returned and weren't caught? 100? 200? Good thing they only come here to work hard and contribute.

51 comments:

Bilgeman said...

Rob:

"...360 suspects who were in the country illegally have been deported."

And it would have cost Costa Mesa how much to keep them in it's jail?

I'll bet that's a substantial savings both to the city and the Feds.

Those that re-enter, we can bill their employers for.

$100.00 a head bounty for reporting an illegal, to whomever rats 'em out, (even other illegals), and we'd clean up this problem within 5 years.

Funny Circus Bears said...

They're here because business' provide them with employment. Drop the hammer on business', as AZ is doing, and they will flee, as they are.

Rob Dawg said...

They're here for lots of reasons. Children becoming citizens by birth needs to stop. We need to pressure the Mexican govt to address rural grievances. Yes, we need to establish workplace rules.

more than anything we need to change the minds of all the soft Americans who refuse to look at the situation honestly. A few pennies more for produce doesn't even blip compared to bilingual primary education costs.

Funny Circus Bears said...

Educate, medicate, and incarcerate.

It adds up fast.

Edgar said...

Border patrol is a screen door on a submarine.

Peripheral Visionary said...

Rob, with all due respect, the solution to the illegal immigration problem is for people--not just businesses, but individuals--to stop hiring illegals.

As long as most of the people crossing the border are looking for work, and as long as penny-pinching business owners and homeowners are willing to hire them rather than their more expensive American counterparts, this problem will continue. Only when the supply of jobs is shut off will it become easier to police, as the only ones without proper residency authorization will be the ones who have come here for crime.

w said...

Here is an excerpt from something a wrote once before:

"It costs about $7 a box to grow cabbage and another $2 to harvest it. Each box weighs 55 lbs. So the cost of harvesting is less than $0.04 a lb. If we doubled wages to farm labor we would see harvesting costs go to around $0.07 a lb for cabbage. Harvesting is about half of the labor cost to producing cabbage so we would actually see about a $0.07 a lb increase in the total cost of producing cabbage. I checked today and saw that Albertsons was selling cabbage for $0.79 a lb and Vons had it for $0.59 a lb. This means that there is a huge margin in the price of cabbage where prices can fluctuate 33% between retailers who buy from the same producers. Obviously, we could absorb the increased cost of labor easily at the retail level. Even at an average price of $13 a box for cabbage (reflecting a doubling of labor costs) that works out to only $0.23 a lb to produce cabbage."

I was subsequently ripped apart by a grower who's big argument was that they had to maintain their margin on the produce at each level of the sales chain so prices would have to go much higher. Also, he said these people were not worth any more than they are paid. I guess they are not providing a valuable service to society like say a hedge fund manager does.

Oviously, the problem is a lot more complicated. I doubt we will find many Americans at any price to work in the fields. Also, we would need a way to negate NAFTA and raise tarrifs on foreign produce to protect producers. But paying people more money to cover their own costs of medical etc. would be good.

Lex said...

Prospero Año Nuevo!

ha38349 said...

Would capital punishment be too harsh a sentence for second time offenders?

Rob Dawg said...

I always thought a green and red tattoo band around the left wrist as part of the repatriation agreement would make an effective inhibition as the release condition would include a promise to remove the tattoo if ever discovered in the US again.

Rob Dawg said...

The maintain margins lie again? So stupid. Wage increases in the fields just pass straight thru with no need for any mark-up. Personally i belive the wage increase will spur further automation making far higher paying jobs as a consequence.

ha38349 said...

tattoo on wrist and subsequent removal doesn't seem like much of a deterrent. And there might be some nasty references to what the Nazis did with tattoos. Now something really over the top like capital punishment for second time offenders might get us somewhere. Either we will decide illegal immigration is ok and we are willing to put up with the costs or we go ahead and draw a line in the sand and say no to illegal immigration.

Peripheral Visionary said...

The death penalty for illegally crossing the border? Well, I can't say that I'm surprised.

The problem with so many proposed solutions to the illegal immigration problem is not that they wouldn't work; they may very well work, but the U.S. would end up becoming virtually indistinguishable from a totalitarian police state, with armed police roaming the streets arbitrarily stopping people and checking their papers, and those who are caught without papers, well, if you're lucky you end up in the detention camp, if not . . .

I think I would have more sympathy with the "immigration enforcement" crowd if there were more reality-based solutions and fewer totalitarian fantasies.

chickenlittle said...

Bravo PV.

But I don't think it would be a police state for us, 'cause illegals look different, and mistakes would be hard to make.

ha38349 said...

Peripheral Visionary said...
The death penalty for illegally crossing the border? Well, I can't say that I'm surprised.

Only for the second (or subsequent offense) and not without due process. When we catch someone here illegally and explain to them in no uncertain terms that if you are caught here again the consequences will be very bad. Finger print and photograph them for a national data base. Have an attorney represent them and have someone interpret in their native language.

Rob Dawg said...

I didn't say -how- the tattoo would be removed.

anyway, I get really tired of the enforcement complaints. How tough is the legal drinking age to enforce? The false positive and false negatives are truly minor if you pardon the pun.

For that matter the lottery system is far more complex and handles far more volume than the elections process. How many accidental winners come from that system?

Lex said...

How tough is the legal drinking age to enforce?

You were never a teenager?

ha38349 said...

anyway, I get really tired of the enforcement complaints. How tough is the legal drinking age to enforce? The false positive and false negatives are truly minor if you pardon the pun.
Capital punishment for second time offenders? :)

Lou Minatti said...

How tough is the legal drinking age to enforce?

It's virtually impossible to keep booze away from a teenage boy who wants it, particularly if he has a hot date. I can remember being 17 and being stupid and horny very clearly. Brains of horny teenage boys don't function properly.

Now that I am an adult and a father, I want the legal driving age raised to 18. :-)

Bilgeman said...

PV:

"I think I would have more sympathy with the "immigration enforcement" crowd if there were more reality-based solutions and fewer totalitarian fantasies."

Okay...your idea(s)?

Here's one...we detain the illegal and make his family, wherever they are, pay us ransom to repatriate him.

Until they do, the cost of detention is borne by his or her employer.

I see a profit-center industry,(at least until the supply dries up...which is the point).

Edgar said...

"I think I would have more sympathy with the "immigration enforcement" crowd if there were more reality-based solutions and fewer totalitarian fantasies."

My solution is simple. One of these day all the citizens of the U.S. should just leave the whole place to them. That's where we're headed anyway. I'm thinking Micronesia or something like that.

Lost Cause said...

360 -- in a city of 108,724 and a county of nearly 3 million.

If I read these figures correctly, this population seems less likely to commit major felonies than the general population.

Of the Costa Mesa suspects referred to ICE, 39% were charged with felonies, he said. Among those, 51 were arrested on drug charges; 28 on suspicion of assault and battery, which includes domestic violence; 19 on felony warrants; 17 on suspicion of burglary; and 10 on suspicion of theft, Police Sgt. Mark Manley said.

Police arrested about 34% of the 520 suspects on charges of misdemeanors or infractions. Of those, 44 were suspected of driving under the influence, 32 of being drunk in public and 29 of driving without a valid license.

Individuals cited with a ticket for a minor offense may be taken to the jail when they are not carrying identification. In the jail, their immigration status is checked. Previously, those checks were spotty or occurred only after an inmate was taken to the Orange County Jail.

The illegal immigrants make up about 10% of all of those brought to the Costa Mesa jail.

w said...

1st plan: There are only 100 million Mexicans. So, maybe we should just merge. They are hard working decent people who when given an opportunity in a lawful society make the most of it. (Stop laughing) Acceptance, equal rights and opportunity would help them integrate. And of course there is nothing wrong with us trying a little to integrate. 70% of the US is Christian but would oppose trying to work together for a better world with our own neighbor. Anyway, this plan would never work.

2nd plan: Allow organized work visa program that allows work in approved fields only. Workers should be paid living wages and not contribute to social security and similar taxes. Workers can come and go with no consequences as long as their visa is current. Employers must pay for a very simple health plan. Families are not allowed to come with the workers, but can visit like anyone else. School enrollment would require proof of citizenship. I like this plan because it emphasizes hiring workers to fill jobs Americans will not do but just because Americans will not work for such paltry wages. We would have to address NAFTA to help protect the industries that would be paying these higher wages to prevent the companies from just moving to Mexico.

All right, now tell me how wrong I am.

Peripheral Visionary said...

@Bilgeman: "Okay...your idea(s)?"

Sure.

- National Secure ID. Required for employment and for major public transportation (e.g. plane flights.) Also, a secure ID, with fingerprints, for all visitors; cost to be paid for by visitor.
- Temporary Worker Visas. And not a small program, but big enough to accomodate the real size of the (current) illegal work force, especially for critical industries like agriculture and construction. Build in worker's rights protection (minimum wage, disability) so immigrants have a strong incentive to do it right and come in through the front door. I don't know what the size would be, but previous numbers are too small; probably at least 500k, but more like 1MM annually.
- Visitation Rights for Families. I'm all for enforcing immigration, but if you're going to break up families you have to make sure they can stay in touch. This isn't just teary-eyed sentimentalism, immigration has led to crime because of the breakup of families, and more enforcement will make that worse.
- More Legal Immigration. Enough that people in Mexico actually have a chance of coming in legally. Right now the legal immigration numbers are so disconnected with reality it's ridiculous.
- Revisit the 14th Amendment. A repeal isn't going to happen, but push for a judicial clarification that excludes children without a parent who is a legal resident.
- More Enforcement. But the punishment should match the crime; fines and deportation as appropriate. And--here's the critical point--enforcement should extend to individuals who employ illegals, not just companies. Oddly enough, as soon as you start kicking that idea around, many of the most stridently pro-enforcement people get strangely quiet.

I'm not against the annexation of Mexico idea, although I think that ship sailed a long time ago; the late 19th Century would probably have been the last time it would have worked.

Rob Dawg said...

- More Legal Immigration. Enough that people in Mexico actually have a chance of coming in legally. Right now the legal immigration numbers are so disconnected with reality it's ridiculous.

I'm for more legal immigration but it is unrealistic to think we can accept anywhere near as many and particularly who would wish to immigrate.

Just ask the Sierra Club about their population pressure issues and then compare to their stance on immigration.

IMO it is immoral to provide a safety valve that forestalls and exacerbates the problems Mexico must face with population and environment.

s said...

Wage increases in the field have to be passed along with some markup. Having to pay more in wages causes cash flow to be more problematic which increases the risk of failure due to cashflow, that risk must be compensated for by a markup (returns and risk are related...).

Plus it lowers the returns, you now need to invest more money for the same return. So assuming the market is reasonably "perfect" (the returns are at the "correct" level) their has to be some markup to keep them at the same percentage level.

And of course this passes up the chain...

As for deporting people who are in jail - obviously you need to do that, however it shouldn't be money saving instrument they should server their time in prison before being deported. Otherwise you are setting up for a great industry in theft in which people illegally enter the US steal as much as they can and then their only punishment is to be deported so they can illegally enter again...

Bilgeman said...

PV:

"- National Secure ID. Required for employment and for major public transportation (e.g. plane flights.) Also, a secure ID, with fingerprints, for all visitors; cost to be paid for by visitor"

Hmmm, wasn't it you who wished for

"fewer totalitarian fantasies"

"Show me your papers. please" has been a staple of every totaliarian portrayal I've ever seen.

Notwithstanding that, your idea has merit, except that the National Secure ID be issued ONLY to tourists and legal immigrants.
Not to citizens, and not to illegals.

And require it's production not just for employment and transportation, but also for every financial transaction.

ATM and credit card records, as well as any other electonic payment would have to have a foreign ID marker added in the databases, which would require the immigrant or tourist to insert their status ID card to complete the transaction.

The "stick" here would be to force the illegals into a currency economy,(if that is even possible at this stage of our commercial environment).

The "carrot" is that this doesn't require us citizens to prove to OUR government who and what WE are.

w said...

s, I agree, but when the cost of producing an item is less than the difference in sales prices between retailers then the price of production really doesn't seem to have much to do with the final cost. Besides which, if people had to pay an extra 5 dollars a week for their vegetables to provide higher wages or offset the government costs of immigrant labor it hardley seems like much of a sacrifice.

Bilgeman said...

PV:

"- Temporary Worker Visas. And not a small program, but big enough to accomodate the real size of the (current) illegal work force, especially for critical industries like agriculture and construction. Build in worker's rights protection (minimum wage, disability) so immigrants have a strong incentive to do it right and come in through the front door. I don't know what the size would be, but previous numbers are too small; probably at least 500k, but more like 1MM annually."

Well, see, that's the crux of the issue. How many workers at sub-standard wages are "enough"? And who will have the loudest voices?
Archer Daniels Midland? Con Agra?

Companies that could move their production offshore to exploit low-wage 3rd World Shit Hole workforces did so long ago.
But Construction and Agribusiness couldn't very well move their farms and building sites offshore also, could they?

So our beloved government, with a nudge and a wink, allowed the 3rd World Shit Hole low wage workforces to come to the sites of production.

And then Hospitality and Retail offered air conditioning and indoor plumbing rather than sweat-in-the-hot-sun work environments.

Julio and Eamon AIN'T stoopid!

The problem with trying to "better the lot" of these industries is that you're essentially trying to build a "better system of slavery".

Like Southerners HAD to learn how to grow cotton and tobacco and sugar using automation because chattel slavery was ended by force, it is only by denying the market access to cheap (and illegal) labor that will spur the development of progress in those fields.

If you allow the government to "wave the magic legislation wand", we will replace (whatever number is current)illegal aliens with twice or three times that number "guest workers".

If there indeed ARE career fields with shortages of citizen workers, and businesses absolutely MUST have these foreign employees, then I'd opine that a triple tax and benefits burden per guest worker man-day versus employing a citizen, should help shake out the "Must-have" cases from the "Gee, it'd be nice to have" ones.
And that would ease the burden somewhat on the rest of us citizen working schmucks.

Bilgeman said...

PV:

"- Visitation Rights for Families. I'm all for enforcing immigration, but if you're going to break up families you have to make sure they can stay in touch. This isn't just teary-eyed sentimentalism, immigration has led to crime because of the breakup of families, and more enforcement will make that worse."

That would be something that employers taking advantage of exploitable labor would have to negotiate with their workers.

In fact, ARAMCO and most of the oil companies provide for some paid "Home Leave", (a month, last I checked), every six months of employment.

But that is not something Uncle Sammy need concern himself with.

And in no way subsidize.

Bilgeman said...

PV:

"- More Legal Immigration. Enough that people in Mexico actually have a chance of coming in legally. Right now the legal immigration numbers are so disconnected with reality it's ridiculous."

And I think you might be a bit disconnected with reality yourself here.

Fact of the matter is that we are at the peak legal immigration period in our nation's entire history.

More immigrants than the Irish of the Potato Famine.
More than the Middle European waves of the 1880s-1900's.

And you want MORE?

Newsflash...the Frontier is closed.

It's not like Patrick or Knudsen can get off the boat, get on a train to the Dakotas, find himself a patch of land and happily start his life as a midwestern sod-buster, y'know?

Gettin' a mite crowded here in the US of A.

Bilgeman said...

PV:

"- More Enforcement. But the punishment should match the crime; fines and deportation as appropriate. And--here's the critical point--enforcement should extend to individuals who employ illegals, not just companies. Oddly enough, as soon as you start kicking that idea around, many of the most stridently pro-enforcement people get strangely quiet."

Absolutely.

More enforcement? No...I'd settle for simple old plain "enforcement".

When your ship is sinking, the first step is to PLUG THE LEAK, then worry about whether to use buckets or hoses or sponges to get the seawater out of the hull.

Bilgeman said...

PV:

"I'm not against the annexation of Mexico idea, although I think that ship sailed a long time ago; the late 19th Century would probably have been the last time it would have worked."

Just out of curiosity, have you BEEN to Mexico?

There's a reason that they live there...they lost the war.

w said...

Skilled ag labor is paid more than a lot of service jobs. Harvesters getting paid by the box commonly make $1000 a week. The work is physically demanding but hardly slave labor. Truck drivers and tractor drivers commonly make 40k a year and even get medical benefits from better growers who want to retain their skilled labor. That is hardly slave labor but you do not find many Americans in SoCal applying for the jobs. Instead Starbucks is full of lost 30-somethings working for $8-10 an hour plus benefits.

Hell, you have field workers driving newer Expeditions and Suburbans to work.

I agree taht if ConAgra had their way their employees would make $2 an hour and sleep in the break room. To combat this the government should mandate living wages for migrant labor and renegotiate NAFTA to allow tarrifs on imported crops and meats that are produced at lower labor prices.

I am not an economist (obviously) but I would bet the cost of production is loosely connected to the retail price. If Costco can sell flats of strawberries for $20 a tray that it purchased for $8 and continuously raise profits then there is room to pay the labor a living wage. I am a staunch conservative, but the truth is the truth. Corporate profits have risen to historic highs, wages have stagnated, the economy is a weakening house of cards, and political change is inevitably going to address these imbalances.

Bilgeman said...

W:

"Skilled ag labor is paid more than a lot of service jobs. Harvesters getting paid by the box commonly make $1000 a week. The work is physically demanding but hardly slave labor."

I wouldn't mind seeing college students, especially the ones with federal subsidies to pay their tuition to learn Medieval French Literature, have the strongly suggested option of paying off their student loans by agri-work during the harvest season.

$1000 a week, with room and board.

The sad fact would be that that would be more money than a lot of those dummies would ever make, even with their edu-ma-cation.

w said...

"Gettin' a mite crowded here in the US of A."

It doesn't look that crowded 50 miles off the coasts. When the bommers tart dropping it will be a little more desolate.

Our ancestors were hardly paragons of virtue. Racists, murderers, and religious zealots. I am glad things turned out the way they have for me, but a lot of other people got the short end of the stick. Our institutions are much stronger than the rabble that immigrated here. Mexicans have a strong support network and blend in well.

w said...

Sorry for my lack of attention to spelling...I meant to say: When the boomers start dropping it will be a little more desolate.

By the way Bilgeman, my wife and I have been reading up on southwest Virginia and looking at homes online in the area. With the fantasy of relocating somewhere less hectic. What do you think of that area?

chickenlittle said...

I fail to see how a secure ID is any different in practice than a valid state driver license- which is of course why the illegals want them so bad.
When I lived in Zurich (on a visa) in the 90's I drove on a valid WI license for a time, and then could have gotten an international one, but I stopped driving instead.
Like video cameras in public places, most law abiding folks wouldn't have a problem with it. When I must much younger, I resented the notion of being fingerprinted because of a fear that "the man" could get me for something I did or didn't do. BTW, exactly which aspect of the Constitution would a national ID violate?

chickenlittle said...

BTW, my solution* to the immigration problem is to encourage and help more younger indigenous people to take hit in lifestyle and start populating opportunity in this country before outsiders do instead.

*certainly not a final solution

Bilgeman said...

W;

"By the way Bilgeman, my wife and I have been reading up on southwest Virginia and looking at homes online in the area. With the fantasy of relocating somewhere less hectic. What do you think of that area?"

I'm not that familiar with up the Valley, but I'm pretty happy here in the tri-state corner down the Valley.

The realtors hereabouts were touting:

"Winchester...it's the new Fairfax!"

I grew up in metro DC, and I didn't want to leave the media market, or the Dulles airport flyway.
Where I'm at now is equidistant to Baltimore metro as well.

Why settle for Richmond when you can have DC and Bawlmer for the same money?

Pretty much everywhere in the Valley you'll hit a college town, I reckon they're spaced about 25 miles apart, between the Civil War battlefields and the farms and the coal pits.

When you see the county police driving by on their new John Deere patrol tractors, you'll know you've arrived.

If quiet and elbow room is your thing, then you oughtta like it.

Tomorrow night I'm fixin' to join the neighbors in watching the traffic light downtown change colors.

If I recall, you were looking for horse land. The stretch where I-66 junctions with I-81 and over to Front Royal has been growing pretty fast recently, but there's still decent acreage to be had relatively cheap.

Lou Minatti said...

I wouldn't mind seeing college students, especially the ones with federal subsidies to pay their tuition to learn Medieval French Literature, have the strongly suggested option of paying off their student loans by agri-work during the harvest season.

You know, I was thinking the same last night and almost typed it in. College costs have increased as more student loan money has been made available... funny how that works, eh? Instead of graduating with $100k in debt, work in the fields like our grandparents did. They might even learn the value of work, instead of whining that they aren't making $50k at 23.

chickenlittle said...

"work in the fields like our grandparents did"

Historically speaking, that's why students have summers off anyway.

Bilgeman said...

Lou:

"You know, I was thinking the same last night and almost typed it in."

Yeah, but Lou, you're genius.

(Or we're each other's hallucinations from the meds they give us here in the bughouse).

Akubi said...

Hey, it's fishnets Friday and time for _you_ to choose your favorite fishy treat or ad lib as needed.
I'll return to posting rail erotica on Zillow Book.

Akubi said...

Hey, it's fishnets Friday and time for _you_ to choose your favorite fishy treat or ad lib as needed.
I'll return to posting rail erotica on Zillow Book.

w said...

Bilgeman, do you ever notice if many people are growing specialty fruits, vegetables and herbs in your area? Is there many farmers markets?

I need to just go on a trip back there and explore a little. My friend just got back from scouting out Nashville for the same reason.

Akubi said...

3 8:03's in a row must be Lucky like Lucky Charms(TM) breakfast cereal baths and such.

Bilgeman said...

W:

"Bilgeman, do you ever notice if many people are growing specialty fruits, vegetables and herbs in your area? Is there many farmers markets?"

There's a few farmer's markets, they're all closed now. I haven't seen a lot of specialty stuff at the local stands, but that might be a function of not having a big market hereabouts for arrugula.
That all might be grown here, but gets put on a truck down I-66 and I-70 for the metro areas.

The County Extension Agencies should have a pretty good handle on what's being cultivated hereabouts.

From my own observation, it seems to be corn,(although not this year), apples and grapes for the vineyards, sorghum, more apples, and then apples yet again.

Quite a few cattle, also. I bought half a steer, butchered and wrapped, last year from a friend's spread up in Pennsylvania for $900, and I'll tell ya, I won't ever go back to eating the dog food that they sell as beef in supermarkets. We still have half a freezer full and it'll be a year this February.

"I need to just go on a trip back there and explore a little. My friend just got back from scouting out Nashville for the same reason."

What I saw of Nashville, I liked.

Your chum might consider Chattanooga...a little gem of a city, and close enough to screw over the tax-parasites of 3 states.

Eastern Tennesse, (Franklin, if they'd had their way), was the West Virginia that didn't secede from it's state.

Interesting place. Nuclear scientists and TVA hydroelectric engineers camouflaging themselves with coonskin cap Daniel Boone "bling".

Lost Cause said...

Did you get a brand new set of white sheets for Christmas or something?

Akubi said...

Zillow Book wants to know where you lost your virginity...
Despite ZB's extraordinary international popularity, I just can't figure out why there are so few comments. Without a dialog, erotica is boring so no more Luba, etc. unless someone bothers to speaks up.

Akubi said...

Send the illegals to Iraq and for Orange Crush check this out.