I have transgressed the unwritten law. I fought back against denigration and insult and in the process proved my points and embarrassed the transit cabal. Normally no big deal. It isn't too hard to refute the FOAMERS (Forces of anti-mobility), NUTS (New Urbanist Transit Supporters), SmUGLers (Smart Urban Growth Lovers), and TrOGs (Transit Only Groupies).
But enough of my description. Here is the threadand the reason I am bothering you. Two reasons. First Metro Rider was recently recommended here and frequently has interesting topics of transportation concern to the greater LA region. It also provides unique insight into the usually "invitation only" world of anything except autos. Second, I bring this to your kind attention because there is an opportunity for education. You see after the dust up outlined above the author has decided to implement a +/- "voting" system where an 5 people can label someone a troll. Anyone interested in this experiment in collective censorship is encouraged to read the thread in question, make up your own mind and vote + for the people who tried to have a discussion and vote - for those who were just ignoring the facts and seeking out personal confrontation and flames. Thank you for your patience in this matter. If you are uncomfortable with the system you can tell the author in comments here.
12 comments:
First to say that your other list of blogs you read had some interesting ones. In this blog, both sides were engaging in a debate. You were just debating idiots.
Thanks. Being so close to the fight I am not a good referee. It was a struggle to not start throwing around issues of their intelligence.
Don't you just love the reaction? Uncomfortable facts they don't want to hear so they will be fair and vote not to hear them.
There are uncomfortable facts going both ways--like the fact that development adjusts to transit/transportation choices after the fact. It's been fascinating to see how urban areas that invest in transit have seen big growth around transit centers, driving up transit ridership from initially low levels to near capacity.
Conversely, the roads that are inevitably advertised as lessening congestion invariably fill up with traffic that ends up at the same bumper-to-bumper stop-and-go speeds that the old roads were at. That development always, always expands to meet--and exceed--road capacity is a point that road advocates can never bring themselves to concede. If you build it, they will come, and that's true of both roads and transit systems.
The difference being, of course, that you don't shout down adverse points of view, and that you don't resort to ad hominem attacks. :)
. . . and the bicycle people were a bit nutty. I've done both car and bike, and yeah, car is faster, unless you're in Shanghai or Manhattan. The point about the cost of the automobile is a good one, cars can be EXPENSIVE--but the key word is "can", they don't have to be. Get an old but reliable car with $5k cash, keep your driving record clean, do your own repairs, and plan your trips out so you're not spending hours on trivial errands. You can get the carrying cost of a car down fairly low, trust me, I know :). With the old compact, I was down to ~$1,000 a YEAR, total, which is what many people spend on the car in a month. I'm on public transit now, which is even cheaper, but I'll eventually give in to reality and get another money-guzzling environment-killer again.
I think PV has a good point. I should ask some of the transportation planners I work with, but I'm sure there is a model to explain that any transportation network (road, transit, airways, etc.) will eventually fill to saturation. The pertinent point is that we all seek the path of least resistance, so we gravitate to whatever works. And then we use it until it doesn't work anymore because of saturation.
I worked in DC for two years. The 12 miles to the far end of the Metro was bad enough, so I gravitated to the Metro for the rest of the trip. Even so it almost didn't work at times. At evening rush hour I often had to wait for one or two trains to go by before I could even get on one. Then, it was a "nuts to butts" ride for 30 minutes. So, their vaunted mass transit was running at full capacity, and still they were asking people to give up their cars. And you're going to cram them where?
Heh. The Orange Country Register had the same system for a while. After they would vote to remove certain comments, you would think that this country is full of narrow-minded, white bimbo republican conservatives. Ummmm....
Peep-le.
heh
Here's a shout out to my "Peeps".
Why my daughter likes these things...?
Anyway, thanks for bring it up Michael Ryan, PV hit the nail on the head. Bike peole can be nutty, but so can rail people. If you build it they will come is spot on. As for cars I agree, the cheaper the better.
As for the models of development patterns Mr. Ryan, The SLEUTH model kind of cover that, they posit that the dendritic network of travelways eventually fill in the space.
somehow missed this. Biking is definitely faster around here(DC area). unless you have some insane 40 mile commute. My commute by car would be 20-25 minutes. by bike it's 15 minutes. I can carry a lot of stuff with me too. plus I can eat whatever I want.
Insane 40 mile commute? That seems fairly typical for the newcomers. I had 25 miles from my apartment.
Now, the biggest part of the new development for people working in the DC area is in Loudoun Co.(~40 mi), Fredericksburg (50+ mi), or even coming in from Harpers Ferry, WV (60+mi).
I do 65 miles each way now, but from an exurban county to Richmond. Elapsed time - 65 minutes.
I can't believe you used the Niemöller quote, though. I though we all thought it was ridiculously dramatic when a certain rocky moutain real estate entrepreneur who kept koi (which is a type of fish) did the same and made fun of him for it.
wow. 65 miles. I'd never do that. ever. I value my sanity. Even if you can do 60 mph. I don't enjoy driving enough to do that day in and day out. I don't mind driving cross country every once in a while. I am guessing your monthly fuel bill for the car is $250-$300. no thanks.
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