Housing Bubble, credit bubble, public planning, land use, zoning and transportation in the exurban environment. Specific criticism of smart growth, neotradtional, forms based, new urbanism and other top down planner schemes to increase urban extent and density. Ventura County, California specific examples.
Saturday, May 19, 2007
Post Mortem
Is it too soon to say it's all over except the arrests? How many fence sitters got turned into haterz™? Does anyone still think he's a poor kid who just got in too deep?
Duane, Treehorn, CHJTS, Benoit, and that Forsaken Craft guy were the highlights. Marty's ramblings could put a meth head to sleep. Also, that angry guy toward the end who was dissing Nigel was funny.
I haven't listened to it yet - too busy updating Caseypedia, whose registered authors have grown from one (NoDebtWhatSoEver™, who started it) to seven in the last 24 hours.
Lawnmower Man started contributing a few hours ago, including this superb entry on bird-dogging.
And great things are expected of Benoit™, since he was the main Wikipedia author (until the wikinazis had their way - but that won't happen here!)
Why thankyou Rob! Just to clarify, I am the one and only NoDebtWhatSoEver™, "mursemaster" is just my email address. I have posted here and on IAFF occasionally and decided to initiate CaseyPedia™ as my way of saying thankyou for the Haterz™ community who have provided so much entertainment over the last few weeks. (Without y'all, Snowflake would be just another Looser™).
Unfortunately I'm in Europe and missed the talkcast last night due to a chronic attack of sleep - sounds like it was fun.
Since everyone has the Saturday post-talkshoe hang-over and comments here are at a trickle, I'll mention that this AM I got up and was in the Soem Dood Estates ™ Official Library (AKA the bathroom), and I picked up the latest issue on my Mensa journal, and there was an article on Sweet Tea!
Duane was talking about sweet tea on yesterday's threads, and I myself happened to have grown up on sweet tea, corn bread, lima beans, boiled peanuts, fried okra, etc.
Ich Bein un Southern boy.
But here is the point of my post: The article claims there is a "Sweet Tea Line" (ala Mason Dixon Line)above which you don't get sweet tea by default in restaurants, but which below, you do.
The states mentioned that are Sweet Tea inclusive were Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, Lousiana, Tennessee and Texas.
However, I have been growing more and more aware of a phenomena in which the south is getting compressed from the top, but more to the point, is getting squeezed out from the bottom. Yup, down around Miami/ Ft. Lauderdale, and even into Orlando, ya gotta go NORTH to get SOUTH. You don't get *any* brewed tea worth a %$@&^ at any restaurant in Miami, and this holds for the Keys, west coast, Tampa, etc. I have managed to get some up in the Florida panhandle., but a good ol' boy has to drive a "fer piece" to get a standard glass 'o sweet tea and a hunk 'o sweet cornbread when you live in the southernmost geographical area in the states!
This may seem obvious, but even after having put up with it for years, it seems cattywhoompus to me.
After listening last night I'm convinced that Casey is totally delusional. Accomplished and knowledgeable people raised valid points but nothing got through his dense skull. He'll probably only stop when he's forced to.
I can see why Galina has stuck around his sorry ass. He's a slimy manipulator and she's a shy young woman, probably easily led around (let's be blunt). Hopefully after she heard how giddy he got at the thought of divorce she'll kick his ass to the curb.
Something just clicked with me about Casey. Whatever he paid for something is what it's worth. If he expects to sell it on for a profit, he justifies this in his mind by saying to himself something like "this is the wholesale price". He got really defensive about what he'd paid NRU for and the value of the "education" he got and was trying to justify the $16000 (or whatever) that he'd spent and was attempting to compare it to conventional college education. Interesting, delusional but interesting.
Voices: I can see what Duane means about his going 1324, but he still comes across like a southern gentleman. Some else mentioned Hungry Bear's voice. I too think it's great and he should read audio books for kids with a voice like his.
What Casey is going to launder the money - he will go to one of his low-life friends and tell them: "I'll give you $1100 from my corporate credit if you pay me $1000 for doing "web design"." Simple!
Since Casey's only demonstrated financial skill is borrowing more money, he's going to stick to what he is good at.
In the talkathon, he didn't directly answer the question of whether his mother was on the hook for the corporate credit...
I don't know what kind of funny-mental church Casey and Galina go to, but sin or not, I know plenty of Baptists who are divorced...
In fact, most Christian religions teach that God will forgive any sin, which would seem to include the "sin" of divorce.
Besides, KC is an adulterer. He's committed to his con artistry and New Age vegan mysticism much more than he is his wife or family. Hey, why didn't they ask their religious marriage counselor what he or she thinks of The Secret?
Hmmmm let's see. Purchase aged corporation with corporation debt, check. Pierced corporate viel, check. No valid business moel or activity, check. Immediate substantial cash burn from the start, check. Momma Serin on the hook, double check.
Rob Dawg @ 8:28 AM: ... “Purchase aged corporation with corporation debt, check. Pierced corporate viel, check. No valid business moel or activity, check. Immediate substantial cash burn from the start, check. Momma Serin on the hook, double check.”
Rob that’s misleading, not to suggest you’ve mislead purposefully.
There is nothing illegal or improper about purchasing a shelf corp, nothing prohibited by having non-(corporate)-activity, and disclosure of a business model isn’t required by California or corporate lenders. Using corporate credit is a matter of corporate direction, subject to an effective Corporate Resolution (essentially the will to borrow for whatever purpose).
As far as piecing the corporate veil, case law is clear on that matter... The “fiction” of a corporation must be evident, in that a want of compliance with corporate formalities and an end affect (alter-ego, etc.) must be shown. Lacking the power of Subpoena, no one can be certain if this applies to the CS corp.
Moreover, Casey’s mother could not be a corp credit guarantor if she is not a stockholder or principal. State records and Westlaw support she (the elder Mrs. Serin) is neither. Additionally, corporate credit grantors do not accept co-signers as with traditional loans. So the elder Mrs. Serin could not act in that capacity either, making this notion of Casey’s mother “on-the-hook” for the corporate credit card improbable.
Not questioning your expertise, LossMitPro, but just in terms of full disclosure: am I right in thinking that you are one of the specialists with which Casey is trying to build a referral relationship?
Lawmowerman @ 9:23 AM: “...am I right in thinking that you are one of the specialists with which Casey is trying to build a referral relationship?”
Fair enough question...
My practice doesn’t need Casey’s referrals, I handle 10 to 25 cases a month (and growing, lately) all by my lonesome (with the exception of a small support staff). And I’ve been doing that for the last six years, consistently, since entering private practice.
When Casey and I first spoke about some of his mortgage issues, he approached me for taking on some referrals. That is perhaps because I had mentioned to Casey (repeatedly), what you folks have consistently pointed out, that he has zero credibility when it comes to foreclosure resolutions.
Without going into allot of interpersonal detail, throughout our talks Casey has been concerned (at least he’s expressed this repeatedly) that foreclosure threatened people coming to his site and asking for help obtain creditable and realistic assistance. Thus, after checking out my background (which is extensive and verifiable) he asked if I’d consider taking referrals. I said yes.
Although just so that we’re clear here, I have not approached Casey for referrals. I don’t need whatever business he can refer; although (as a business person), I’m not going to turn away potential clients if I can help them.
I’m hoping more about this (my professional relationship with Casey) can be exposed later, as I’d be happy to discuss unprivileged matter. I am neither against the “Haterz” so to speak, nor am I blind to Casey’s propensities. As I hope you and others will discover, I tend to take a more balanced view of all this (blog, the back-n-forth banter, the speculation, etc.) than a firm “side” as it were -- one way or the other.
Arthur Wankspittle @ 9:44 AM: “...here it is common for banks to get a personal guarantee of corporate credit. I would have thought that it is similar in CA.”
Hey Arthur: You’re correct, personal guarantees are a universal aspect concerning corporate credit (irrespective the state of charter) when certain conditions apply. And universally a Corporate Guarantor must be closely affiliated with the corporate entity, such as a stockholder or operating principal.
OK so taking your answer, the bank will jump at the chance to advance credit backed by Casey's mum, all Casey needs to do is either "grey" what role his mum has in the company or do some paperwork. We all know he's a lot better at one of those than the other. My guess is the bank either accepts a blood relative to the corporation's officer or will have a clause in there saying that Casey has warranted that mum is "closely affiliated" or an "operating principal". Come on, this is Casey: "Do you want some credit?" "Yes, what do I have to say to get it"
Arthur Wankspittle @ 10:12 AM: “...My guess is the bank either accepts a blood relative to the corporation's officer or will have a clause in there saying that Casey has warranted that mum is "closely affiliated" or an "operating principal".”
Commercial lending doesn’t work that way, Arthur, not here in the states anyway. To achieve what you’re suggesting one would have to substantial manipulate documentation, much of which would appear on the public record.
Just as an FYI. U.S. commercial lending relies upon different standards than consumer lending: length of business, projected receivables, etc. A Personal Guarantee is most often required in commercial terms, when a firm (corporation, LLC, PPL, etc.) is a start-up or overleveraged temporarily.
Please know I’m not trying to diminish what you’re saying, I’m only stating that the facts (supported by the evidence so far) don’t sustain the theory that Casey’s mother PG’d the corporate credit. Still, there are ways this could have been done under the table so to speak. But I doubt those means were engaged here, at least according to the record to date.
I (at this stage) don’t see Casey as either skilled or crafty enough to pull off a corporate manipulation, presupposing he was of a mind to do so. We’re talking very technical measures here, all of which require a discipline Casey doesn’t have. That doesn’t mean such wasn’t done, only that the probabilities some inappropriate corporate conduct was engaged are slim.
I (at this stage) don’t see Casey as either skilled or crafty enough to pull off a corporate manipulation, presupposing he was of a mind to do so. We’re talking very technical measures here, all of which require a discipline Casey doesn’t have. That doesn’t mean such wasn’t done, only that the probabilities some inappropriate corporate conduct was engaged are slim. Thanks for the explanation. I would agree with you that the above scenario is extremely unlikely. What other explanations are available? Mum has lent him or the corp some money? Mum has given him a card or done some sort of "joint account" card arrangement? Would it be possible that mum has put some money into the corp to boost its perceived credit rating, paid back when Casey gets a line of credit for the company? Just speculating here, I don't know how it works in CA.
Arthur Wankspittle @ 10:51 AM: “... What other explanations are available? Mum has lent him or the corp some money? Mum has given him a card or done some sort of ‘joint account’ card arrangement? Would it be possible that mum has put some money into the corp to boost its perceived credit rating, paid back when Casey gets a line of credit for the company.”
Please keep in mind, most of the aspects that follow are universal (doesn’t matter about the state in which a corp is chartered). Having said that let me make it clear that I have no information that Casey’s mother loaned the corp money, and I don’t care to know. That’s none of my business as I tend to not pry into Casey’s personal affairs (other than to ask how things are going), unless they directly and specifically correlate to his mortgage debts.
One can in deed, hypothetically, loan money to a corporation and in turn the corporation can loan that money to someone else. A corporation (no matter in which state it is chartered) is like a separate person, and has certain rights almost like a living person.
So if I loan you $20 to loan to your pal, such is perfectly legal and acceptable whether the parties are a corporation and private (living) person, two corporations, or combinations of all.
As far as putting money into a corp to boost its perceived value? Highly unlikely as the money contribution would have to season (remain intact for a lengthy time) to show a high rated banking account, and the probabilities of someone going to those lengths is low. Corporate credit is much easier to get than many people believe, financials and documentation not always being required.
D&B (Dun & Bradstreet) and CE (Corporate Experian) are part of the corporate credit process, and use criteria based on performance and track record. Then there is the aspect of trade credit, which is different than cash-credit. None of these operate upon a co-signer basis.
All in all even a fresh start-up corp, with a reasonable Paydex and/or Intelliscore (75 to 80, respectively) can obtain from $10 to $25,000 within a month or two after formation. Albeit these sums are lessening a little due to present mortgage defaults and shy investor pools. Still corporate money is very loose as compared to consumer credit and, it always has been.
Hope I’m not coming off too verbose about all this, but it is important folks know there is more to this corporate credit thing than meets the eye.
@lossmitpro -- it has been some 7 years since I last dealt with corporate credit for my own business, so my knowledge on this front might be rusty, but it seems to me that there are two corporate credit 'paths'.
1) Corporate Credit from a lending institution, eg, a bank loan.
2) Corporate Credit from a credit card company, eg a credit card from someone like MBNA.
In #1, the issues you're talking about (loads of paperwork, public records filings, etc) are much more a part of the loan-making process. In #2, not so much. Hell, my corporation has been shuttered for years and I still occasionally get solicitations for "guaranteed" corporate credit cards in the mail.
fiat lux @ 11:37 AM: “...it seems to me that there are two corporate credit 'paths'”
Actually, there are four (4) corporate credit types including two that you mentioned. They are: 1) Trade Credit; 2) Merchant Credit; 3) Credit Cards; and, 4) Bank cash lines.
Trade Credit is such obtained through outlets like Staple, Office Depot, Cost-Co, etc. Merchant Credit is similar, only offered from specific suppliers of goods and services (airlines, hotels, and local stores fall into this category) -- limiting purchases to certain restrictions. Then there are Bank lines, the ability to write a check for a certain amount (according to the corporate limit) as needed.
Cash (Bank) lines are the most difficult to obtain for a start-up, but a seasoned and performing corporation doesn’t necessarily need to produce tons of documentation to obtain them. A start-up corporate principal with a personal FICO of over 680, for example, and one willing to Personally Guarantee (PG) could conceivably gain a cash line soon after filing a corporate charter.
Exactly what records would show who is and isn't a shareholder?
I file an SI-200 every year. It is the only form I am required to file. It does not require that I list my shareholders, only the directors and officers. It is entirely possible that shareholders might exist that are not reported anywhere on this form. In fact, to my knowledge the only official listing of shareholders is the one that is maintained by the corporate secretary.
If I decide to sell 10% of my corporation to my brother (for example), and he declines to take a seat on my board how would anybody know unless they see my shareholders roster?
BelowTheCrowd @ 11:23 PM: ” Exactly what records would show who is and isn't a shareholder? … If I decide to sell 10% of my corporation to my brother (for example), and he declines to take a seat on my board how would anybody know unless they see my shareholders roster?”
Good question. And, likely no one would know (or need to). Ten percent is a negligible share often negating disclosure requirements. But in context with Serin, I was referring no change in the control status since formation of his corp. Doesn’t mean he hasn’t culled out shares, to family members or otherwise.
Hammar Investments, Inc. was formed in 2003 so it’s an aged corp. Using the right databases a Paydex and/or Intelliscore can be had, and from there trades from reporting agents examined. Corporations, as you know, have no right to privacy and aren’t subject to restrictions placed upon investigations (i.e., FDCPA, Civil Code §1788, etc.).
Please note I was looking at this corporate credit thing (when conversing with others above) from a logical (lender-based) perspective. Since the Serin corp is aged (over two years old) it is more than likely (in the extreme) a lender granted credit without any Personal Guarantee. Wouldn’t have been much, I can say with assurance, but hey ten to twenty grand is still ten to twenty grand.
Is it too soon to say it's all over except the arrests? How many fence sitters got turned into haterz™? Does anyone still think he's a poor kid who just got in too deep?
37 comments:
First! YAAA
I finally made it. I guess the rest of you haterz have talk-a-thon hangovers and are sleeping in.
Murst!
I trust that someone will put up a transcript as I have no intention of listening to the whole thing.... I will listen to Duane, though.
Duane, Treehorn, CHJTS, Benoit, and that Forsaken Craft guy were the highlights. Marty's ramblings could put a meth head to sleep. Also, that angry guy toward the end who was dissing Nigel was funny.
I haven't listened to it yet - too busy updating Caseypedia, whose registered authors have grown from one (NoDebtWhatSoEver™, who started it) to seven in the last 24 hours.
Lawnmower Man started contributing a few hours ago, including this superb entry on bird-dogging.
And great things are expected of Benoit™, since he was the main Wikipedia author (until the wikinazis had their way - but that won't happen here!)
"Mursemaster" the wiki is a welcome addition to this little corner of reality.
Pull anything off the actual wiki entry you want. I still guard it against frivolous deletes and add what I can where I cna
Why thankyou Rob! Just to clarify, I am the one and only NoDebtWhatSoEver™, "mursemaster" is just my email address. I have posted here and on IAFF occasionally and decided to initiate CaseyPedia™ as my way of saying thankyou for the Haterz™ community who have provided so much entertainment over the last few weeks. (Without y'all, Snowflake would be just another Looser™).
Unfortunately I'm in Europe and missed the talkcast last night due to a chronic attack of sleep - sounds like it was fun.
Since everyone has the Saturday post-talkshoe hang-over and comments here are at a trickle, I'll mention that this AM I got up and was in the Soem Dood Estates ™ Official Library (AKA the bathroom), and I picked up the latest issue on my Mensa journal, and there was an article on Sweet Tea!
Duane was talking about sweet tea on yesterday's threads, and I myself happened to have grown up on sweet tea, corn bread, lima beans, boiled peanuts, fried okra, etc.
Ich Bein un Southern boy.
But here is the point of my post: The article claims there is a "Sweet Tea Line" (ala Mason Dixon Line)above which you don't get sweet tea by default in restaurants, but which below, you do.
The states mentioned that are Sweet Tea inclusive were Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, Lousiana, Tennessee and Texas.
However, I have been growing more and more aware of a phenomena in which the south is getting compressed from the top, but more to the point, is getting squeezed out from the bottom. Yup, down around Miami/ Ft. Lauderdale, and even into Orlando, ya gotta go NORTH to get SOUTH. You don't get *any* brewed tea worth a %$@&^ at any restaurant in Miami, and this holds for the Keys, west coast, Tampa, etc. I have managed to get some up in the Florida panhandle., but a good ol' boy has to drive a "fer piece" to get a standard glass 'o sweet tea and a hunk 'o sweet cornbread when you live in the southernmost geographical area in the states!
This may seem obvious, but even after having put up with it for years, it seems cattywhoompus to me.
If you'd like to listen to the Tardcast, it can be found here.
It's about 27 megs, missing the first few minutes.
After listening last night I'm convinced that Casey is totally delusional. Accomplished and knowledgeable people raised valid points but nothing got through his dense skull. He'll probably only stop when he's forced to.
I can see why Galina has stuck around his sorry ass. He's a slimy manipulator and she's a shy young woman, probably easily led around (let's be blunt). Hopefully after she heard how giddy he got at the thought of divorce she'll kick his ass to the curb.
Does anybody have the Sac address?
Might be in the area today with camera.
Something just clicked with me about Casey. Whatever he paid for something is what it's worth. If he expects to sell it on for a profit, he justifies this in his mind by saying to himself something like "this is the wholesale price". He got really defensive about what he'd paid NRU for and the value of the "education" he got and was trying to justify the $16000 (or whatever) that he'd spent and was attempting to compare it to conventional college education.
Interesting, delusional but interesting.
Voices:
I can see what Duane means about his going 1324, but he still comes across like a southern gentleman.
Some else mentioned Hungry Bear's voice. I too think it's great and he should read audio books for kids with a voice like his.
Please do remember to use properly equipped Firefox if you insist on going to Pool Boi's site.
Thanks,
A public service message sponsored by Steph's warm life giving bosom
If you're talking about Yulia's, it's
2508 Snapdragon Circle
West Sacramento, CA 95691
AHAH! Oh that made me smile.. thanks soem dood.
Hey Dawg, since we can't leave comments on your 'sticking home prices' thread - I claim FIRST™! YES! YES! YES! BOOOyah!
Oooops. Fixed. Talkcast hangover.
What Casey is going to launder the money - he will go to one of his low-life friends and tell them: "I'll give you $1100 from my corporate credit if you pay me $1000 for doing "web design"." Simple!
Since Casey's only demonstrated financial skill is borrowing more money, he's going to stick to what he is good at.
In the talkathon, he didn't directly answer the question of whether his mother was on the hook for the corporate credit...
I don't know what kind of funny-mental church Casey and Galina go to, but sin or not, I know plenty of Baptists who are divorced...
In fact, most Christian religions teach that God will forgive any sin, which would seem to include the "sin" of divorce.
Besides, KC is an adulterer. He's committed to his con artistry and New Age vegan mysticism much more than he is his wife or family. Hey, why didn't they ask their religious marriage counselor what he or she thinks of The Secret?
Hmmmm let's see. Purchase aged corporation with corporation debt, check. Pierced corporate viel, check. No valid business moel or activity, check. Immediate substantial cash burn from the start, check. Momma Serin on the hook, double check.
Rob Dawg @ 8:28 AM:
... “Purchase aged corporation with corporation debt, check. Pierced corporate viel, check. No valid business moel or activity, check. Immediate substantial cash burn from the start, check. Momma Serin on the hook, double check.”
Rob that’s misleading, not to suggest you’ve mislead purposefully.
There is nothing illegal or improper about purchasing a shelf corp, nothing prohibited by having non-(corporate)-activity, and disclosure of a business model isn’t required by California or corporate lenders. Using corporate credit is a matter of corporate direction, subject to an effective Corporate Resolution (essentially the will to borrow for whatever purpose).
As far as piecing the corporate veil, case law is clear on that matter... The “fiction” of a corporation must be evident, in that a want of compliance with corporate formalities and an end affect (alter-ego, etc.) must be shown. Lacking the power of Subpoena, no one can be certain if this applies to the CS corp.
Moreover, Casey’s mother could not be a corp credit guarantor if she is not a stockholder or principal. State records and Westlaw support she (the elder Mrs. Serin) is neither. Additionally, corporate credit grantors do not accept co-signers as with traditional loans. So the elder Mrs. Serin could not act in that capacity either, making this notion of Casey’s mother “on-the-hook” for the corporate credit card improbable.
Just some food for thought.
~Mark
Not questioning your expertise, LossMitPro, but just in terms of full disclosure: am I right in thinking that you are one of the specialists with which Casey is trying to build a referral relationship?
Don't know about CA but here it is common for banks to get a personal guarantee of corporate credit. I would have thought that it is similar in CA.
Lawmowerman @ 9:23 AM:
“...am I right in thinking that you are one of the specialists with which Casey is trying to build a referral relationship?”
Fair enough question...
My practice doesn’t need Casey’s referrals, I handle 10 to 25 cases a month (and growing, lately) all by my lonesome (with the exception of a small support staff). And I’ve been doing that for the last six years, consistently, since entering private practice.
When Casey and I first spoke about some of his mortgage issues, he approached me for taking on some referrals. That is perhaps because I had mentioned to Casey (repeatedly), what you folks have consistently pointed out, that he has zero credibility when it comes to foreclosure resolutions.
Without going into allot of interpersonal detail, throughout our talks Casey has been concerned (at least he’s expressed this repeatedly) that foreclosure threatened people coming to his site and asking for help obtain creditable and realistic assistance. Thus, after checking out my background (which is extensive and verifiable) he asked if I’d consider taking referrals. I said yes.
Although just so that we’re clear here, I have not approached Casey for referrals. I don’t need whatever business he can refer; although (as a business person), I’m not going to turn away potential clients if I can help them.
I’m hoping more about this (my professional relationship with Casey) can be exposed later, as I’d be happy to discuss unprivileged matter. I am neither against the “Haterz” so to speak, nor am I blind to Casey’s propensities. As I hope you and others will discover, I tend to take a more balanced view of all this (blog, the back-n-forth banter, the speculation, etc.) than a firm “side” as it were -- one way or the other.
Hope this addresses your concern?
~Mark
Arthur Wankspittle @ 9:44 AM:
“...here it is common for banks to get a personal guarantee of corporate credit. I would have thought that it is similar in CA.”
Hey Arthur:
You’re correct, personal guarantees are a universal aspect concerning corporate credit (irrespective the state of charter) when certain conditions apply. And universally a Corporate Guarantor must be closely affiliated with the corporate entity, such as a stockholder or operating principal.
~Mark
OK so taking your answer, the bank will jump at the chance to advance credit backed by Casey's mum, all Casey needs to do is either "grey" what role his mum has in the company or do some paperwork. We all know he's a lot better at one of those than the other. My guess is the bank either accepts a blood relative to the corporation's officer or will have a clause in there saying that Casey has warranted that mum is "closely affiliated" or an "operating principal". Come on, this is Casey:
"Do you want some credit?"
"Yes, what do I have to say to get it"
Arthur Wankspittle @ 10:12 AM:
“...My guess is the bank either accepts a blood relative to the corporation's officer or will have a clause in there saying that Casey has warranted that mum is "closely affiliated" or an "operating principal".”
Commercial lending doesn’t work that way, Arthur, not here in the states anyway. To achieve what you’re suggesting one would have to substantial manipulate documentation, much of which would appear on the public record.
Just as an FYI. U.S. commercial lending relies upon different standards than consumer lending: length of business, projected receivables, etc. A Personal Guarantee is most often required in commercial terms, when a firm (corporation, LLC, PPL, etc.) is a start-up or overleveraged temporarily.
Please know I’m not trying to diminish what you’re saying, I’m only stating that the facts (supported by the evidence so far) don’t sustain the theory that Casey’s mother PG’d the corporate credit. Still, there are ways this could have been done under the table so to speak. But I doubt those means were engaged here, at least according to the record to date.
I (at this stage) don’t see Casey as either skilled or crafty enough to pull off a corporate manipulation, presupposing he was of a mind to do so. We’re talking very technical measures here, all of which require a discipline Casey doesn’t have. That doesn’t mean such wasn’t done, only that the probabilities some inappropriate corporate conduct was engaged are slim.
~Mark
@LossMitPro/Mark: Hope this addresses your concern?
Very much so. Thank you for the frank answer.
Does anyone think that a few detailed letters to the inlaws had anything to do with their recent demands of Casey?
I (at this stage) don’t see Casey as either skilled or crafty enough to pull off a corporate manipulation, presupposing he was of a mind to do so. We’re talking very technical measures here, all of which require a discipline Casey doesn’t have. That doesn’t mean such wasn’t done, only that the probabilities some inappropriate corporate conduct was engaged are slim.
Thanks for the explanation. I would agree with you that the above scenario is extremely unlikely. What other explanations are available? Mum has lent him or the corp some money? Mum has given him a card or done some sort of "joint account" card arrangement? Would it be possible that mum has put some money into the corp to boost its perceived credit rating, paid back when Casey gets a line of credit for the company? Just speculating here, I don't know how it works in CA.
Arthur Wankspittle @ 10:51 AM:
“... What other explanations are available? Mum has lent him or the corp some money? Mum has given him a card or done some sort of ‘joint account’ card arrangement? Would it be possible that mum has put some money into the corp to boost its perceived credit rating, paid back when Casey gets a line of credit for the company.”
Please keep in mind, most of the aspects that follow are universal (doesn’t matter about the state in which a corp is chartered). Having said that let me make it clear that I have no information that Casey’s mother loaned the corp money, and I don’t care to know. That’s none of my business as I tend to not pry into Casey’s personal affairs (other than to ask how things are going), unless they directly and specifically correlate to his mortgage debts.
One can in deed, hypothetically, loan money to a corporation and in turn the corporation can loan that money to someone else. A corporation (no matter in which state it is chartered) is like a separate person, and has certain rights almost like a living person.
So if I loan you $20 to loan to your pal, such is perfectly legal and acceptable whether the parties are a corporation and private (living) person, two corporations, or combinations of all.
As far as putting money into a corp to boost its perceived value? Highly unlikely as the money contribution would have to season (remain intact for a lengthy time) to show a high rated banking account, and the probabilities of someone going to those lengths is low. Corporate credit is much easier to get than many people believe, financials and documentation not always being required.
D&B (Dun & Bradstreet) and CE (Corporate Experian) are part of the corporate credit process, and use criteria based on performance and track record. Then there is the aspect of trade credit, which is different than cash-credit. None of these operate upon a co-signer basis.
All in all even a fresh start-up corp, with a reasonable Paydex and/or Intelliscore (75 to 80, respectively) can obtain from $10 to $25,000 within a month or two after formation. Albeit these sums are lessening a little due to present mortgage defaults and shy investor pools. Still corporate money is very loose as compared to consumer credit and, it always has been.
Hope I’m not coming off too verbose about all this, but it is important folks know there is more to this corporate credit thing than meets the eye.
~Mark
@lossmitpro -- it has been some 7 years since I last dealt with corporate credit for my own business, so my knowledge on this front might be rusty, but it seems to me that there are two corporate credit 'paths'.
1) Corporate Credit from a lending institution, eg, a bank loan.
2) Corporate Credit from a credit card company, eg a credit card from someone like MBNA.
In #1, the issues you're talking about (loads of paperwork, public records filings, etc) are much more a part of the loan-making process. In #2, not so much. Hell, my corporation has been shuttered for years and I still occasionally get solicitations for "guaranteed" corporate credit cards in the mail.
fiat lux @ 11:37 AM:
“...it seems to me that there are two corporate credit 'paths'”
Actually, there are four (4) corporate credit types including two that you mentioned. They are: 1) Trade Credit; 2) Merchant Credit; 3) Credit Cards; and, 4) Bank cash lines.
Trade Credit is such obtained through outlets like Staple, Office Depot, Cost-Co, etc. Merchant Credit is similar, only offered from specific suppliers of goods and services (airlines, hotels, and local stores fall into this category) -- limiting purchases to certain restrictions. Then there are Bank lines, the ability to write a check for a certain amount (according to the corporate limit) as needed.
Cash (Bank) lines are the most difficult to obtain for a start-up, but a seasoned and performing corporation doesn’t necessarily need to produce tons of documentation to obtain them. A start-up corporate principal with a personal FICO of over 680, for example, and one willing to Personally Guarantee (PG) could conceivably gain a cash line soon after filing a corporate charter.
~Mark
Mark,
Exactly what records would show who is and isn't a shareholder?
I file an SI-200 every year. It is the only form I am required to file. It does not require that I list my shareholders, only the directors and officers. It is entirely possible that shareholders might exist that are not reported anywhere on this form. In fact, to my knowledge the only official listing of shareholders is the one that is maintained by the corporate secretary.
If I decide to sell 10% of my corporation to my brother (for example), and he declines to take a seat on my board how would anybody know unless they see my shareholders roster?
BelowTheCrowd @ 11:23 PM:
” Exactly what records would show who is and isn't a shareholder? … If I decide to sell 10% of my corporation to my brother (for example), and he declines to take a seat on my board how would anybody know unless they see my shareholders roster?”
Good question. And, likely no one would know (or need to). Ten percent is a negligible share often negating disclosure requirements. But in context with Serin, I was referring no change in the control status since formation of his corp. Doesn’t mean he hasn’t culled out shares, to family members or otherwise.
Hammar Investments, Inc. was formed in 2003 so it’s an aged corp. Using the right databases a Paydex and/or Intelliscore can be had, and from there trades from reporting agents examined. Corporations, as you know, have no right to privacy and aren’t subject to restrictions placed upon investigations (i.e., FDCPA, Civil Code §1788, etc.).
Please note I was looking at this corporate credit thing (when conversing with others above) from a logical (lender-based) perspective. Since the Serin corp is aged (over two years old) it is more than likely (in the extreme) a lender granted credit without any Personal Guarantee. Wouldn’t have been much, I can say with assurance, but hey ten to twenty grand is still ten to twenty grand.
Hope I addressed your question ok?
~Mark
Post a Comment