Monday, July 02, 2007

The Real Crisis

It isn't that we are running out of energy, it is that we are running out of smarts. Looking at Santa Monica's "Green Garage" it might be argued that we are running out of good taste as well but that brings up whether SoCal ever had any to begin with. The Lookout News reports on the new $29m Civic Center parking structure. Among the claims:
The structure’s photovoltaic panels -- which cost $1.5 million -- will pay for themselves in 17 years by generating $90,000 a year in electricity,” said Craig Perkins, director of Environmental and Public Works Management for the City.

Well, yes $90k/yr for 17 years is $1.5m but that's not how you cost a project and they know it. The panels would need to generate about $120k/yr to justify the inital expense after 17 years.

James Kunstler has also named this POS his Eysore of the Month here. This lovely bit of architecture earns his scorn in part for being a monumant to the bygone age of the automobile. It is to laugh.


The Dude said...


Go said...

It can not be...First?

The Dude said...

Yep, that's ANOTHER 2fer for me.....and a big bitchslap for all you looser Haterz(tm)

Rob Dawg said...

Go, no more firsts for anyone else until The Dude turns off his 'bot. What say Jack?

Schnapps said...

That thing is hideous. If it were built in my city, the mayor would never hear the end of it from me.

serinitis said...

The hope on Solar cells is that although they are not cost effective now, as they get into mass production, they will be

The Dude said...


I don't have a "bot"....never had a "bot"....and would not know how to create one.

Tony Soprano said...

So, do we have confirmation Snowflake really is back in the states and free?

Schnapps said...

I tried asking that in the last thread, Tony.

No response.

Like Dawg says, he's just a tease and a troll :>

Rob Dawg said...

-IF- they designed it right with extra current capacity in the control system and structural points to add panels then you mght be right. The price of electricity is probably going to explode as well. I just can't stand all this LEED crap. Most of what it directs should be done anyway if it is cost effective the rest is feel good BS.

This thing looks like Christmas wrap put through a trash compactor.

The Dude said...



Need you to clarify something for me. Is "What say Jack?" just an insult or an invitation to flame?

Rob Dawg said...

I don't know yet about the 'tard. When I find out I'll spill. He went to Australia without telling anyone (he lied) why would he tell the truth about coming back? Current working models suggest you consider everything he says is a lie until verified.

Rob Dawg said...

Just friendly banter. (I do read your posts.) You really don't have a 'bot? I just assumed since the last two firsts were identical and so very fast... My bad. I apologize.

Schnapps said...

Indeed, Dawg, indeed.

Although it would have been quite the Kodak moment to see the look on his face when his key didn't open the door to the house.

Tony Soprano said...

I can't believe he'd be dumb enough to even go back to Sac, much less try to unlock the door. But, this is Snowflake afterall and he's probably in "Itsallgood" phase right now. He figures that if he made it out of the airport unserved and without new bracelets, he's homefree. Still though, that takes some big brass ones to come back.

Speedy Villagonzales said...

How much energy does a parking garage generate anyway?

The global warming / peak oil crowd are bigger scammers than the real estate fliptards.

Anonymous said...

boring......blah blah blah blah...

Where's the "family secret" super troll?

Anonymous said...

So even if he's back in Sac, he has no ride since Galina has the keys!

Welcome to the BusStop journals!!

Schnapps said...

The point is, that building is hideous. Why have a building that doesn't blend in better? Its apparent those panels are available in pretty much any colour.

Because you want to make sure people know about it so the park there and pay the owner money.

1000 a weak said...

Really disappointed.

A lot of bluster the past couple of weeks about meeting Snowflake at the airport, marshalls taking him into custody, serving him papers as he steps off the plane, etc etc.

What happens? Jack shit. I'm losing faith in everyone involved.

BTW, Santa Monica paid extra for that parking garage for the same reason people pay extra for Blu-Ray. Get in early, vote with your dollar. I've no doubt that solar technology will be a couple orders of magnitude better by the time the costs of the parking garage have been fully realized, but it's at least a step in the right direction. Santa Monica govt, at least, didn't bluster about building it and then do nothing.

someotherpersonaltogether said...

Hey...those parking spots have all the best views! I wonder if there's a market in flipping parking spots.

The Dude said...


Apology accepted....

Now, on to topic at hand.

BS about the savings. Funny how top line numbers are always used to sell something. What about M&R for the system? You can't put ANY system in place and not have M&R. What about upgrades....there's always upgrades. Chances are the whole thing will have to be replaced in five years or less. Oh well, just run out another "it will pay for itself in _____ years".

That is one butt ugly building......

Hobbes said...

is there a link somewhere to LMP's full complaint. I think i understand what he is saying he wants it to say, but I want to read it myself.

I am with Sputnick, p and realist on this. I don't think that LMP has a cause of action. I do pro bono work all the time, and if a client fails to follow my advise [sic] I withdraw my representation (I also do that if the client is paying). I do not have a cause of action, at least not under Florida law, to get the fees from my pro bono client that I would have obtained if I had spent the time with a paying client.

Anyway I'd like to see the entire complaint. I know from my own experience a judge will forgive a misspelled word, but you can't type "breach of contract" and then claim "oh, I meant Common Law Indemnity".

Also I have never heard it call "Pro Per" in either Florida, nor Alabama nor Georgia nor the Bankr. Ct. of SDNY ... maybe it is called that in California. (The old saying that a person who represents him self has a fool for a client and an idiot for a lawyer applies in all jurisdictions IMO) Anyway there is some talk here that hter is judicial prejudice against pro se litigants... well that's true, mainly because pro se litigants do things like confuse the words "libel" and "liable".

Another thing--- the Ex Parte hearing, what is that. The caption of the Complaint seems to talk of legal causes, not anything that would allow Mark to get a TRO. And even if he gets TRO, I think he still has to serve Casey within a reasonable time thereafter... i don't think posting on a blog or sending e-mail counts as service, even in California. Now in small claims here in Palm Beach,Florida (called "county court") the court will issue a notice of pre-trial hearing along with the summons, but if the defendant isn't served by that date then it is reset by the Court, maybe that is what is going on here.. but my recollection is that Superior Court in Cali is equivalent to Circuit Court in florida.

Also I am aware that, as Rob says, Mark can sue anything for anyone. for instance I (personally and not as a lawyer) could file suit against Rob for not coming by and fixing Sputnik's keyboard and ask for a TRO, damages and discovery. Doesn't mean that I get any of them and I also have to get service on Rob. Then I have to prove that I am entitled to sue on behalf of Sputnik.

I guess my point is that besides the sun causing algae, I just don't think that LMP has a case against Casey based on what I've read. I wish that it were otherwise.

I just think LMP is handing Casey a "victory" in a battle that he (LMP) has no standing to fight.

But like I said the other day, I hope I am proven wrong.

H Simpson said...


In the Boston news today.

Big Dig fixes not so good:
Before fixes, Big Dig tunnels leaked 1.6 million gallons of water a month.

After year of of new $5 million dollar repair budget to stem the flow, the tunnels now leak 2.3 million gallons per month.

For such a succcess, the turnpike commission wants to give the boss a raise of 50G.

Be thankful your garage is just ugly. It doesn't cost $5 millon a year to make it worse, or kill people indisciminately.

Duane LeGate said...

That "Bluster" didnt come from Rob, Mark or me. It came from people hoping, wishing and speculating. Things are shared when they are confirmed, and not before.

At 8:57 AM, 1000 a weak said...
Really disappointed.

A lot of bluster the past couple of weeks about meeting Snowflake at the airport, marshalls taking him into custody, serving him papers as he steps off the plane, etc etc

Sharky said...




(PS: The Automibile will never die. Ifthere was something better, it would have already overtaken the car.)

mejustme said...

What about M&R for the system? You can't put ANY system in place and not have M&R.

What is M&R?

someotherpersonaltogether said...

Maintenance and repair?

Rob Dawg said...

Solar is going to be interesting. Prices are coming down but we really need more efficiency. The energy density recovery is still too low.

I don't mind bleeding edge or loss leading pioneers but don't insult our intelligence with cost effectiveness claims. A little more subsidy from governemnt and I'm a prime candidate for photovoltaics and/or heat pump retrofitting. Not enough just yet and that's with our criminal and criminally high electricity rate structures in California. We are still paying SCE for unrealised profits from the never negotiated contract to handle n-waste from plants that were never built.

If we can get another 15-20% out of PVs the price of and demand for petroleum fuels will plummet. Google "quantum dots" for one such possibility.

Rob Dawg said...

M&R, maintenance & repair. In this case so close to the ocean I expect corrosion and "filming" will drastically reduce the output in short order. Then the city will hire expensive washers and polishers and the $90k/yr won't even cover their salaries.

Did I mention seagull poop?

someotherpersonaltogether said...

But, Rob! The views!

The Dude said...

Yes, maintenance and repair. It's a huge line item on the profit and loss statement and is one that grows exponentially w/time.

When you figure prices will come down for comparable technology and M&R climbs, it soon becomes more expense to maintain than replace. THEN, you start the cycle all over again. It's part of business, but should be included in their discussion. Anytime someone says "it will pay for itself"....grab your wallet and sit down fast...they are coming after it. :o)

segfault said...

A heat pump has to be set up properly or else it won't result in any savings... The backup heat coils (or gas burner) should not run at all if the outdoor temperature is above 35 or so, even if someone bumps the t-stat up ten degrees (they can be set up this way, but many don't bother to).

The Dude said...

"Close to the ocean"!!!!!!!

Fuck, all bets are off. When McD's adds a location near the coast, any coast, equipment life is cut in half. That lovely fresh seabreeze is eating your business......

Mozatta said...

Taking population out of the picture, what is it that us in the Midwest are doing wrong with our concrete parking garages? Seems to me these structures require little maintenance and energy. A few light bulbs here and there and you're set.

Property Flopper said...

Hobbes -

> I just think LMP is handing Casey
> a "victory" in a battle that he
> (LMP) has no standing to fight.

LMP won't have standing on much of the complaint, but the libel may hold up... or not. Internet name calling is generally not actionable and he'll have to show damages... difficult at best.

This all assumes Casey shows up. LMP (does anyone else read that as "Limp"?) doesn't need to win, getting Casey into court is his victory.

If Casey shows up, he opens himself up for all kinds of fun. If he does not, it's a default judgement. Nice move by LMP either way.

Best counter for Casey is to get a pitbull attorney and counter sue. Make it expensive for LMP - court costs / attorney fees, etc. Of course, that would take far more effort than he's willing to put out, as well as money - I seriously doubt an attorney is going to touch CS without a HUGE retainer. Then it would be a mater of who blinks first.

Sharky said...


Ventilation fans.

Especially in underground garages, there are codes for evacuating carbon monoxide from the structure.

Your customers won't pay you if they're all dead in their vehicles.

Of course, you can then go into the Used Car biz.

CHJTS said...

I will try and make this post brief.

All of you trollz and supporterz and martys and caseys super secret power team:

You say Dawg, Lostmittens, and Duane dont answer the hard questions.

With Dawg:

True he has never been on a haterzcast because he is shy, but he has answered all hard questions posed to him in his blog. He does not dodge them nor evades nor shirks from them in any way.

End result on Dawg in regards to you on this is you can kiss my ass with your rhetoric and BS.

On Duane,

He shirks no questions and answers them, even from the trollz. You may think he doesnt answer some of them because he goes on vacation more than our President, but he covers them pretty damn good in the catchup of reading when he comes back.

He has been on the Fraudcasts and even a haterzcast, and I asked him some hard questions which he answered and did not shirk from.

Bottom line from me to the trollz on Duane, you can kiss my ass again.

ON lostmittens:

Lostmittens answers just about all questions...shirks from not a one. He answeres every question on every haterzcast he has been on, and I do not pull any punches. I ask him questions that the trollz ask him and he answers them.

He above all others is forward, honest, doesnt pull any punches, and thorough and meticulous in his answers.

On the haterzcast tomorrow (shameless plug) at 4:30 pm PST, lossmit will be fielding questions from me and from other callers.

See I am not like casey and just talk back and forth...I open up the main players to questions from the audience at large.

If you have a question for him, then quit hiding behind anonopussy and call in and ask him.

Bottom line from me on mark is this, you can kiss both sides of my ass.

bemused guy said...

How much energy does a parking garage need?! Someone mentioned extractor fans which are definitely a full-time must underground but in an above-ground, open air structure?

Nigel's Guest Blogger said...

To the anons:

You keep asking the question as to why LossMIT, Duane and Rob are as involved as they are.

I ask you, why do you care?

There are a couple possible scenarios that could play out:

First, let's just say Duane, LossMIT and Rob are all some form of nefarious scammers here with some twisted financial motive that no one knows about. Somewhere there's a big chunk of money for the taking. If you don't care how Casey goes about wading around in his grey waters, why would you?

Second, this is a big made-for-the-web soap opera. And we're all the suckers when it finally is revealed. Who cares about any of it then, it's been entertaining.

Third, they have positive motives for stopping Casey. Family and friends are indeed getting hurt. LossMIT went out on a professional limb to try and help Casey. Again, if you're ok with someone like Casey doing things that appear to be fraudlent, unethical and creative, why would you care how these folks have gotten involved?

Nigel's Guest Blogger said...

Whoops, can't set off the grammer natzis:

If you don't care how Casey goes about wading around in his grey waters, why would you care about how they attempt their scam?

First Time Poster Long Time Murser said...

Parisians hated the Eiffel Tower when it first went up and hated the Pompidou Museum, too. Maybe they still hate that one.

The Tower was built for reasons similar to this garage; it was a demonstration of a new building material, steel.

Sometimes you have to shake up the "gray people" in order to get them to see the light.

Anonymous said...

(PS: The Automibile will never die. Ifthere was something better, it would have already overtaken the car.)

The auto will die when the only viable energy source for it (oil) becomes too expensive.

P.S. my bicycle is better than your car.

BJ said...


Lostmittens answers just about all questions...shirks from not a one.

Actually he has shirked from one.. a question I posed a few threads ago WRT 'tactics'. He answered/replied to everyone but the one I asked. He was also online at the time. I found the 'skip' interesting. No, it doesn't 'impeach' LMP. The non-answer would tend to indicate that my thoughts were along what he was intending/doing and that he did not want to reveal his cards yet.

You can sometimes learn more from what is omitted than from what is stated.

ClutchGuy said...

Not only do the panels themselves cost money, but what about that abomination itself? As the article says, only $1.5 Mil was the cost of the panels. They spent $29 Million on that....thing. While it's nice to see more solar panels outthere something like this is enough to drive people away! (pun intended)

Tesla said...

I like renewable energy sources as a hobby. I've built my own small wind turbines from misc. spare parts and have played around with solar cells. But I always laugh when I see the alleged payback schedules. The assumptions are inevitably wildly optimistic.

For solar power the green advocates often neglect to mention that:
(1) efficiency drops a bit with lifetime, even IF the panels are kept clean
(2) efficiency varies with time of day and time of year, as the suns angle of incidence changes (you can remedy this by getting a solar tracker to change the angle of your panels but this adds more to the cost)
(3) most climates only allow for several hours of energy generation per day

I'm really intrigued by the solar shingles. They're very expensive for now but if costs drop a bit I think they'll be much more popular than standard photovoltaic cells.

Anonymous said...

I think it's cool. It looks funky. Hey it's Santa Monica for freak's sake. They got a building shaped like a giant pair of binoculars and a restaurant with a giant clown in a tutu in front of it.

Sharky said...


"P.S. my bicycle is better than your car."

Move a refrigerator lately?

Let me know, I'llput the videoon YouTube.

And I'll keep an eye out for bicycle "snow tires".

Anonymous said...

Bicycle moving:

Winter cycling:

Car tards are so, so pussyfied.

P.S. how often do you move your fridge, dipshit?

Rob Puppy said...

This all assumes Casey shows up. LMP (does anyone else read that as "Limp"?) doesn't need to win, getting Casey into court is his victory.

If Casey shows up, he opens himself up for all kinds of fun. If he does not, it's a default judgement. Nice move by LMP either way.

Do you have to be stupid to be a renter? Its a ex parte hearing which means Casey is not expected t be there. The judge would only act if there was a need to prevent imminent and irreparable harm.

Otherwise they could either schedule a two party hearing sometime next year or throw it out for lack of standing. And plain stupidity.

Sharky said...


"Car tards are so, so pussyfied.

P.S. how often do you move your fridge, dipshit?"

Why so hostile, eco-pedal-pusher?

Did I touch a nerve?

I might be a pussified dipshit car-tard, but I wouldn't be the one causing big yuks on YouTube by bicycling down the interstate towing a Frigidaire.


Roberto CULOsaki said...

Did Frank Gehry design that POS???

No, wait...looks more Peter Max.


RogerRabbit said...


Santa Monica, huh?

I thought they tore down Toon Town when they put the freeway through.

It looks like ToonTown is making a comeback