kerriella asks;
Sorry to slightly detour the thread but I was wondering if anyone here has any experience with kitchen remodeling and if so would you mind emailing me? I have a few questions about possibly remodeling our new house. Or if anyone knows of a website they would recommend that I could ask my questions that would be great.
Thanks
I remodelled my kitchen. My countertop was so radical my fabricator required me to sign a waiver. After it was in he asked if he could copy some of the elements. So anyone got any suggestions? Mine:
Solid surface countertops.
Most expensive vinyl flooring available.
Task lighting but don't go overboard.
Brutal cost control at every step.
46 comments:
FirsT
Eat my DusT.
Anyways, isn't that one of casey's sweet deals?
Snowflake has a new venture.
RD,
we're doing a kitchen renovation as well. Could you break out what you mean by severe cost control?
we're putting in the cabinets ourselves (ikea) and going for stainless (got the microwave).
looking at countertops too right now, granite or corian?
@R-Boy
I think he means don't put a 10 thousand dollar kitchen granite top in a 75 thousand dollar house. I thought stainles was getting passe, and I'm pissd cuz our microwave and fridge are stainless (and MAN do they suck to keep clean).
Granite is nice but VERY unforgiving to china & stemware.
Forums?
First, solid surface (Corian, et al) is not IMHO negotiable. It is strong, safe, pretty, hygenic, cost effective. Nothing compares. Stone is expensive, difficult to work with, unsanitary, has seams, is expensive and fragile. Only special circumstances justify granite. I have granite in my tool shed for instance where sctratches are expected and unimportant. So, the first step is to budget for the surface; how much, how many pieces, cost and finally delivery and installation as rerquired. Work back from that date and price for cabinets and appliances. Appliances are the place to save. You can always upgrade later. Same for hardware and fixtures.
Cabinets, I don't much care except for mechanicals. I can live with wood skinned fiberboard if they are strong and have high quality hinges/sliders.
Fllor. Avoide the temptation for stone/ceramic/tile/wood/pergo. Really, another ease of mantainence, price and hygiene issue here. You will also save a lot of broken objects. Slips/falls and barefoot comfort are also better.
As to cost control, be your own contractor if possible. Nothing blows a budget like change orders. Do what I said:
1 design counters
2 match cabinets to design
3 make a hardware and appliance list and shop for bargains rather than going to the design store and choosing the GE profile IV Series. Particularly buy "last years' models." What, 15 years from now you'll notice the difference between an '06 and '07 microwave?
4 Demo yourself; easy and fun. This also lets you discover the nasty surprises before the clock starts ticking on the expensive help and it isn't too late to make changes inexpensively.
But I ramble. That's enough for now.
Yes, dammit. Forums. I swear.
In modern design parlance, stainless is a signifier for 'professional,' which in an age of Food TV and celebrity chefs is considered 'better'. Never mind that it's the quality of the food, not the equipment, that truly makes a good meal.
That said, one thing that really does matter as far as cooking goes is gas versus electric stoves. If at all possible, go for gas.
A word about stainless. I had that crap in my restaurants and it's a PITA. Yeah, it's shiny and has been pumped up on TV, but I would NEVER put it in my house.
That being said, make sure you polish it WITH the grain. Yes, SS has a grain.....
Not doing so soon make it look like shit.
Been there, done that, got lots of T-shirts.
@Stanley -- you're in the food biz? Get thee to Ruhlman's place.
I recently redid my kitchen, gutted down to the studs (well, sortof, it was plaster, now half is drywall), and rebuilt.
I would never do anything but stone countertops, though I understand the appeal of glass and some of the newer part-stone composites. I detest Corian, it scratches, I think it's ugly and I really, really dislike the feel of the material.
Granite, lavastone, etc. (though NOT marble, never use marble on a countertop) are pretty much impermeable, unstainable, unscratchable (I have no cutting board, I just cut on the countertop, only thing it damages is the edge on the knives), completely heat resistant, never fades, and will outlast your house. I also got it half off retail cost fairly easily. I don't know what RobDawg means by unsanitary but it's a solid surface and pretty much undamageable, I can wipe it off with any cleaner I like, including straight bleach.
If you really can't afford stone, go tile, made of porcelin or glass, not ceramic, so that if they chip, there's no colour difference. Xhoose grout carefully and seal well.
Another biggie is to spend the extra $ (mine was a $1000 bump) to get plywood cabinet construction, not particleboard sides. My contractor had installed cabinets very similar to mine, but with particleboard backing and some sides and they said they were already alightly visibly warpy upon installation and hard to hang well.
Go classic, decide what you want to spend money on, what's important to you and how you're going to use the kitchen. Little things, like doing dishwasher drawers instead of a standard if you have s small househole, or what type of burner grates are on the stove you choose, can make a big difference. If you want a tile floor, do you want a radiant heating system under it? If you want wood, will the shade go with the cabinets, etc.
Corian, especially light coloured corian, also stains and shows scorch marks. Yes, you can buff them out but why anyone would want to worry when you can get a stone or glass top and put a pot from a 500 degree oven down and walk away I do not know. Heh.
Sprezzatura,
Not anymore.....I sold out and retired. I spent 15 years in the food business. All in all, I enjoyed it; but making a lot of money helps you feel that way about it. LOL
If I see another SS appliance...I'll puke. The smart people, who HAVE to have that shit, will at least select models with interchangeable panels....just a hint if SS blows up your skirt.
WOW I feel honored! lol I go to get groceries and come back to a thread devoted to my comment.
I honestly don't know if this is doable or just a stupid idea of mine but what we are looking at is....
Our new house has 2 kitchens. Is it possible or economical to just take the cabinets from the 2nd to use in the first and just buy new matching doors and drawers for them all then paint or stain them to match?
Thanks for the thread Rob! :)
kerriella
Duh I forgot to add that we want to enlarge the 1st kitchen to take up the breakfast nook area so we have a spacious kitchen instead of the small cramped one now. There is no wall seperating the 2.
kerriella
People worry about the specifics of kitchen cabinets? Wow. Last time I gave that a thought was when one of mine fell off the wall. I called the landlord and said the usual "It's broke, fucker" and he sent a guy out to nail it back up. The cabinets are 1950s-era metal. The one that fell is way more dented than the others. The places where the white paint scratched off are deep rusty gashes now. They remind me of that little celebrity girl who flashed her nads last year. I forget her name.
Kerriella -
Wood cabinets have around a 50-year lifespan, theoretically. The more solid wood involved the better. So if yours are well-constructed and not too old, go for it. Cabinets are a huge expense, recycling is good.
You might want to take a door and/or drawer to a cabinet store/home store/contractor and check on the finish there now and how to properly refinish them, the best way to sand, prep, etc., your particular ones to make sure it's doable.
Anyone here familiar with Tom Hignite? He's a crazy religious homebuilder who tried to start a 1950s-era Disney-style animation studio, which of course failed, ending in screwed animators and much ridicule.
HERE'S THE STORY.
I bring this up because Mr. Miracle has begun an ad campign that is most peculiar. Is he becoming a new mega-ultra-Casey? This post is from an anti-Miracle discussion board for victims of Hignite's shoddy practices:
I heard the latest ad from Miracle Homes on the radio today. They are really pushing the fact that they have more than 40 homes either finished or already under construction and nearly ready for occupancy. They have even taken their no payments option a step further and are offering no payments until October of next year on their “ready to move in” homes. On top of it they are adding granite counter tops and stainless steel appliances to their Elite and Founders packages respectively.
As I listened to the ad, many of the normal thoughts that I have whenever I hear Tom do an ad start my head racing and I don't always hear the whole thing. The thing about this ad that really struck me was that Tom almost sounded desperate. I understand that homes sales in general are not doing that well at the moment, but they are so desperate to sell their homes that they are now making an offer to buy your existing home from you if you buy one of their " ready to move in " homes. I know they threw some conditions on it, but I honestly can't remember all of the details. For some reason this ad just sounded different and I can't really explain it.
If anyone else has heard this ad, I would love to get your take on it. I'd also be interested in hearing what others think about the concept of a builder buying your existing home, to get you into one of their new homes. It strikes me as an odd way of doing business, but maybe it's just me.
Thanks Beezer, That's good advice. I just sent you an email. :)
Kerriella
Good expansion on my fiberboard comments. The exposed pieces and structure should be wood or very high quality plywood. The backers, dividers, etc. there is no need to be that fancy. Oh and if your cabinets have good bones you can get them resurfaced for a fraction but if you are remodelling then it would be more trouble than a full new set.
Solid surface versus natural stone versus composites. Religion it appears. All stones stain and need sealing. All solids will scorch. Personal decision.
Stage 1: Discovery
What's up with this link? Says it's some site with some dude who's $2.2 mil in debt and facing foreclosure. Guess I'll check it out.
Stage 2: The Noob
Wow! What the hell was he thinking? Why would he think cashback is profit? What the hell is a wraparound? OMG, what is up with the caveman and the cat pooping in shoes? These people here are freaks. Some of these commenters are being too harsh. They should give him some decent advice instead of being so negative.
Stage 3: The First Comment
Casey, you need to realize the seriousness of your situation and take drastic action. If I were in your poop-filled shoes, I would blah blah blah blah. Furthermore, blah blah blahblahblah blah bankruptcy blah. Get a job blah blah call lenders blahblahblah no more jamba. Additionally, here is a long pointless comparison to some lesson that I learned in my life.
Stage 4: Confusion
OMG, I just gave him the best advice EVAR and he didn't even respond. And what's up with that hater comment calling me a NOOB? Fuck you man, did you even read what I read?
Stage 5: Time to Have Some Fun
Well, Casey isn't listening to my advice and neither is anyone else. All this Casey-bashing is pretty funny and looks like fun. Casey, you fliptard, you should be flipping burgers not houses. OMG, he posted that! HAHAHA! Casey, you should register iamfailingforward.com! ZING!! Who the hell is Yneone? And what is up with this Nigel suckup? Hey, I'll fuck with them for a while. Ooh, I know, I'll make up a fake personality! HA, this is great! Oh yeah! accrostics + poetry + fake sitcom script + photoshops + etc...
Stage 6: A Hater is Born
This kid is either retarded or a scammer, and either way he's lazier than Paris Hilton's left eye. No shit you should get a job sherlock. OMG, 35 bucks for a freaking jamba juice??? Man, these noobs just keep saying the same things over and over and over. STFU NOOB!! Does Tim get paid by the word or something? Jeez. Casey, would you moderate already you lazy son-of-a-bitch?? Die, you NLL swamp creatures!! What's up with this Robert Cote site that everybody keeps talking about?
Stage 7: The Local
Yo, what's up Ogg! How's it going Rob Dawg. Anon 2:24, I think Casey's address is 2508 Snapdragon Circle, West sacramento, CA 95691 if I recall correctly. Anon 3:56, check the December 3rd post at IAFF. Actually, I would prefer to not fuck myself dead, Tim. Oh god, I can't even read the drivel at IAFF anymore. These new commenters don't have anything on us old schoolers. STFU NOOB.
Stage 8: I Cants Takes No More
Why is this kid not in jail? Is the FBI still on dialup or something? If I read one more heart-felt piece of obvious advice in an IAFF comment I'm going to puke. Can't you do-gooder idiots get it through your thick skulls that this KID CAN NOT BE SAVED?? ARGHH! He's a freaking looser!! I mean loser! I mean... shit I keep saying itsallgood. MUST KILL CASEY FANNNN's SONG....All right, IAFF, EN, I'm out.
Stage 9: The Wistful Return
Hmm, I wonder what ol' Casey Serin is up to. He's got to either have waken up or have been arrested by now. (Click)
Stage 10: The Born-again Hater
A freaking apartment complex??? Foreclosure advice?? He's in cahoots with Nigel?? He's carrying a MURSE???? That's it. I'm emailing the FBI, the Sac DA, and anyone else I can think of. This idiot needs to be stopped. My god, these people are STILL GIVING HIM THE SAME DAMNED ADVICE. STFU NOOBS!! Oh good one, change the site name to iamfacingincarceration.com. NEVER HEARD THAT ONE BEFORE. You know, NOOB, back in the day, we had to wait 24-48 hours in the rain and snow for our comments to be posted, and even then they usually were deleted. We didn't have your fancy shmancy anti-spam words or your podcasts to make fun of. We had to make our insults out of wood and rocks. Tibetan Monk, you owe Ogg a licensing fee.
Stage 11: Boredom
This kid is NEVER going to learn. No houses left, he's not in jail, and he still has no job. Messing with him is like taking candy from a baby. Getting tired of his trolling posts. Hmm, what's up with this link? Guess I'll check it out.
Totally not to bicker, but that's more a caution that reality, though it depends on the stone.
Marble is a soft stone and will stain easily, and white marbles will yellow with age.
Granite however, is an exponentially harder material. There are different crystalline structures in different colours/types of granite. If you look closely at say, a light, heavily mottled or veined granite counter, you can see the structure. Where there are larger 'spaces' between crystals, the stone can be permeable if liquids seep into the veiny areas where the crystals meet.
The more consistant the colour of the stone (like a flat black or consistant green granite), the smaller and more densely packed the crystals are and the surface is pretty much impermeable to anything and doesn't require sealant. I can pour red wine on my countertop and it will sit there in a little pool until it evaporates, no harm, no foul.
If someone wants a more permeable granite, sealing stone counters only consists of rubbing on liquid sealant and rubbing off the excess once a year. It's like polishing a table.
Lavastone and glass are completely impermeable.
yeah were moving our existing cabinets downstairs to save costs
thanks for all the tidbits, keep em coming.
we just tore down some paneling in the basement, realized the basement walls are a mess, and that our time is going to be better spent elsewhere, cause a demo crew comes in 2 weeks and theyll just destroy it
woohoo! packing now!
Is anyone going to tape the Casey appearance on Suzy Orman show? I don't have cable but want to view it. VHS to mpeg would be great!
Going to a crab feed anyways!
FWIW, I don't understand why anyone would go tile or granite over corian for their countertops. Also agree with his comment about getting high-grade vinyl flooring. Stone is very uncomfortable to stand in for any amount of time.
-walt526
i built my award-winning kitchen from an old door i stole out of a tear-down house. after mounting the door to the wall, i tiled it with tiles that were laying around, plus spacers, mortar, and grout i got off freecycle. i added some minor shelves, and one dinky cabinet i got at a garage sale for $1.50. total cost: labor + $25. and it's SWEET.
I didn't so much build my kitchen as facilitate its eventuality. I stole the ideas, the parts, the materials and then asked people what they thought.
Vinyl flooring? Humm...sounds tacky. (Similarly, Corian is the formica of the 1990's. Basic plastic.) But avoid wood in high traffic areas.
(seriously, if you had those metal cabinets in the photo...those are coming back. Keep them.)
Gas cooktop
Electric Wall Oven
Bottom Freezer French Door Fridge
Dishwasher
Cherry Cabs
Granite
Le Creuset Cast Iron Cookware.
Spend the money once
im currently at
Stage 11: Boredom
This kid is NEVER going to learn. No houses left, he's not in jail, and he still has no job. Messing with him is like taking candy from a baby. Getting tired of his trolling posts. Hmm, what's up with this link? Guess I'll check it out
*****
but regarding the new kitchen.
ill be happy to contribute a 98cent gift certificate to the 99cent store.
theres a ton of em here in nyc
dumberer & dumbererest
I'm going to ask a question for those of you who know more about cooking and kitchens than I do. How come no one likes gas ovens? Wouldn't one heat up faster than an electric?
@segfault -- gas is better for the cooktop because you get better, faster, and more even temperature control (something electric ranges don't generally do well).
Personally I don't care how my oven is powered, although some do. You don't need the same speed and power in an oven, because there you generally set one temperature and leave it.
Microwave only here!
Gas cooktop for the reasons given. Oven doesn't matter so I'd go gas for reliability and operating efficiency.
Solid surfaces are good stuff. their only fault is the monoploy pricing. At market pricing there would be no other materials being considered.
I'm a regular reader, but a first time poster (aka lurker). Not a financial expert, but experienced at kitchen remodels. It's all about what appeals to you, and what your budget can handle. I did a "completely gut the room" remodel and I'm now in the midst of a custom home build. First, I second Rob's comment on cost control. *Start with a detailed plan*. Don't feel you have to stick with your current configuration. We started with a U-shaped space, with one leg a pennisula. Ended up with an "L" and an island, which was a far better use of the space.
If you use a contractor the plan should have every single detail, down to cabinet hardware and faucet choices. *Stick* to the plan. You'd be amazed how quickly small changes add up - $50 here, $100 there, before you know it you're several thousand over budget. I did granite the first time around and would not consider anything else. It's about the same price as Corian, but far superior IMHO. (Remodel granite - Vizaq blue, new granite - Antique Labrador. Both very different, and both very cool.) Heed the advice of Beezer - darker, tight grained granite will serve you very well for many years. And, yes, if you drop a glass on it - it *will* break. It's worth it:-)
I spent 12 years with a wood floor, and loved it - very easy to keep clean and very soft underfoot. The new place will have ceramic tile - I suspect there will be mats strategically placed for standing comfort. Get the best cabinets you can afford. Pull outs in all of the bottom cabinets are a necessity, not a luxury, unless you love sitting on the floor rooting around for stuff that's migrated to the back. Another cool item is an instant hot water tap at the sink. It's something that gets used everyday. We chose a tile backsplash, which I liked a lot - easy to keep clean, never needs repainting.
If you're a TV watcher, have the hookups put in during the remodel. I had a small TV inside the cabinet over the fridge. New place will have a small flat screen on a bracket that can be angled in various directions. Get under cabinet lights on a dimmer. We have halogen "hockey puck" lights under every cabinet.
If you have the room, a trash drawer is wonderful. We had a pull out with a 13 gallon trash can in it. New kitched doesn't have it, but there I'll have a pantry where the trash can will live.
I'll stop now, because this getting *way* too long. Happy to share more via email, if you like.
Linda
@Life Cycle....you nailed it.
In one house, we've got cork floors in the kitchen. Now I can't live without them. They look amazing, are really comfortable to stand on for long periods of cooking (think Thanksgiving) and haven't broken anything on that floor yet because of the slight 'bounce' factor.
It balances out the granite countertops that i have managed to scratch the hell out of from veg prep and sharp knives.
My .02-
First, go to the IKEA webshite and download their kitchen planner. All you have to do is put in you room dimensions, and you can drag and drop different configurations to get different looks. Worth its weight in bandwidth.
Second, use the IKEA website again to add everything up. Cabinets are easy to plan for, but hardware can get nuts if you don't plan ahead.
Third, take your sweet time with appliances, and be sure to use all of your available resources (interwebs, dead tree, etc.) No one says you gotta buy new appliances the day your kitchen is done. By using the web, and taking advantage of fliers, I got all of my appliances for $1280 by buying floor models, waiting for a sale weekend, adding a manufacturers rebate, and a sellers rebate (Lowe's). When the dude rang everything up, he said "wow" and called a manager over to make sure it was right.
FWIW, I made my counter tops, 4" butchers block. Cost about $300, but my dad has a 36" planer in his shop, so it's kinda like cheating.
Staub is superior to Le Creuset.
An area people tend to skimp on is a backsplash. Don't forget to plan a good one form the beginning so you aren't scrambling at 99% completion trying to find the right materials.
And at phase 90% completion you need a treat. By now you're tired, possibly fed up & have spent some coin so go out & buy those fantastic knives you always thought were too expensive.
All that kitchen really needs is a stick or two of dynamite.
I'm going to have to chime in here. granite is the way to go. It doesn't stain(I use a sealant once a year), its absolutely gorgeous and is quite sanitary compared to other counter tops. Yes it's a b*tch to make look nice(ie streaks when you clean it with even a slightly dirty sponge). However our kitchen is the gathering area when we entertain unless it's nice outside and then most folks our outside. Floors...we have tiled stone. Actually helped me dad lay it(that was when he owned the house). Now I want to put a different stone in. Doing it yourself saves mega bucks. the most expensive part of doing a floor in stone is the labor.
Re:
>>And at phase 90% completion you need a treat.<<
Jamba Juice!
We did granite counters in January (kitchen and bathrooms)and due to intense competition and the downturn in construction it turned out to be cheaper than Silestone or Avanza (fabricated granite).
$4600 for 4 rooms (we found pieces from the scrap area for the batrooms), close to half the price it would have been a couple of years ago.
Our cabinets are pretty good (medium grade oak Merillat with pullouts). So just changing knobs, wall plates and new counters, backsplashes and faucets changed the look completely.
Don't use granite. At any cost. It does not last-- and the industry is finally realizing/admitting this. Turns out, it has to be aggressively sealed, and even then, it can be stained. Use Caesar stone, etc. (i.e., manufactured solid surfaces) they don't stain and require no maintanence.
Post a Comment