For all the talk of balance of trade I don't worry about the US being the dummy. I am cursed or unduly tempted if you prefer. Despite my "frugal" nature I find myself only a very few miiles from every major church, temple, sanctuary, edifice and reliquary to the almighty gods of consumerism. Worst of all is the Camarillo corporate HQ of Harbor Freight and Tools. Look at this example. A 25 piece open and box end SAE and Metric wrench set for eleven US dollars. Anyone wish to calculate the cost of the fuel, just the fuel to get 5lbs of tool hardened and chromed steel from the factory to the dock across the ocean and to the store? Don't talk to me about the energy used to mine, refine and forge, don't tell me about the lighting in the offices or retail location. I charge $11 for about ten minutes of tracking down a network glitch. It's a deal. You take these silly pieces of green paper and give me the nice machine tools. Later if you want to trade the silly pices of green paper back it will take 4 times as many to get your tool set back.
44 comments:
Mehurst.
FWIW fackENers did have first.
WIW : nothing
Prices in big retail are definately shaved close. Last time I had access to margins at a supermarket (which was some years ago) about 1/3 or more of the items on sale were selling for a loss, with the buisiness depending on selling multiple items to customers and moving big volume.
If people comparisoned shopped for every item and were willing to stop multiple places to get everything they need, half of big buisinesses would have to close.
MOIST!
And thanks for giving me intelligent issues to think about.
First I claim First! Except I may loose it by the time I finish my comment.
Second I agree with you Rob, I don't see what is bad about them sending us stuff and we give them little bits of paper that say IOU on them.
Third, the tools a crap. You must think of them as disposable.
fackENers did indeed have a first but it was the equivalent of a hole-in-one on the 3rd when you teed up for the 5th. You gotta hit what you aim for not take credit for what you hit. Really, anything except a post that read "Casey" would have made the grade but in case you haven't noticed the switch to fliptard containment mode has made this a better place for everyone even the trolls.
That coupon is expired, Dawg! :(
I agree with you Rob, I don't see what is bad about them sending us stuff and we give them little bits of paper that say IOU on them.
Third, the tools a crap. You must think of them as disposable.
They -used- to be crap. I mean real crap; pot metal with voids in the casting (not forging) and splayed tangs and unparallel contact surfaces. The Chicomms ain't stupid. Turns out that it is ultimately cheaper to make really good stuff than it is to make crap. I know that doesn't seem right in our society but think of the consequences.
1. Build quality items, ship them and sell them and collect the money.
2. Build crap and ship them and sell them and then hire English speaking attorneys to defend and a PR machine to spin the story and a support dept and a returns dept and...
See?
Every tool I have purchased from Harbor Freight has broken in some way. That said, the stuff I don't use much, I love to pick up there.
Hell yesss that coupon is expired! I'm on their double secret coupon list. I ain't sharin'. ;-)
You can go to www.harborfreight.com and get on the same list. This week I recommend:
http://www.harborfreightusa.com/html/emails/28/RetailA/Images/24.gif
Good for removing rectally concealed webphnes from booked felons.
A 5-lb box in a standard 20' container port to port from Shanghai to LA...fuel cost is max 5c per box.
They may be better than before, and be good enough for occasional use or to fill out a set until replaced by better tools. But how does that compare to going down to Sears and getting Craftsman tools that are good for life? Use (and abuse) them and when they break take it back and get a new one.
I'm Moist!!
um, since when is $7.01 (18.00 - 10.99) the same as $8.00?
That may be grounds for a lawsuit. Not to give Mark any ideas...
"2. Build crap and ship them and sell them and then hire English speaking attorneys to defend and a PR machine to spin the story and a support dept and a returns dept and... "
And face possible execution if your fuck up is bad enough!
Rob writes: and splayed tangs
Mocha's 'tang is perpetually splayed. :-Þ
Benoit,
I think i just threw up in my mouth a little bit.
[Good to see the humor returning. ]
Third, the tools a crap. You must think of them as disposable.
I have found that some are crap and some are not. Quality varies wildly. It may be because some of the US buyers do not know how to recognize what makes quality tools.
I bought a large set of drop forged Chrome-Vanadium offset box wrenches from Harbor Freight (real inexpensive too). They were made in China and the manufacturer even had their name on the tools. I was quite surprised by the quality. Most tools are not made out of Chrome-Vanadium except for impact wrenches. I am including manufacturers/brands such as Matco, Snap-On and Sear/Craftsman on this list. Chrome Vanadium is a very tough metal, and tough to work (does not file, cut, grind easily).
Oddly, I have also found Chrome Vanadium tools at Pepboys. I think they are upping their quality. Their parts supplys are better than NAPA (long story here). I am starting to see more Chrome Vanadium tools out in the general market these days, but I would double check (could be someone just claiming it is what it isn't).
Chrome Vanadium tools can be identified by how the metal 'rings'. They are also often labeled with 'Cr-V' or similar.
@Benoit™
Mocha's 'tang is perpetually splayed. :-Þ
8-@~
::rinse::
While we're talking metallurgy,and kind of riffing from the last thread:
Are we in a de facto "Plutonium-based" currency?
The only chinese tools I have are a super sized set of hex keys which someone bought me because I was always bitching about never having the right sized hex key.
Its great in principle, but I don't thing a single one of those things are the size they claim to be.
I've heard though that the chinese have more success with metric sized tools.
When China makes eleventy-billion of those wrenches to be sold all over the world, the actual cost is quite slim. I'll bet Harbor still makes a profit after all is said and done on a volume basis.
Besides, it gets you to buy other higher marked up crap. WAL-MART is notorious for this.
Are we in a de facto "Plutonium-based" currency?
Naw.. more like a currency in Illudium Pew-36 Explosive Space Modulators.
Inflation + cheap chinese lawn chair = On Topic?
I use HF for a lot of tools that I need for a single job. A cheap belt sander for grinding the bottom off a boat knowing the bottom paint is going to croak any model by the time I am done.
I have done well with their electronics. Just don't expect the english instructions to make sense.
(if they use the same quality instruction on their nukes, they are going to accidently blow themselves to kingdon come).
I got a 9" digital veneer caliper (good to 1/100 of an inch) for less than I payed for a 4" brass manual one at the local hardware store.
I have also gotten an optical drive digital tachometer for 1/4th the price I could on the web. The worse thing was all the other units on the web were the same unit with a different badge.
Finally, they sell 100/box sets of nitrate/laytex gloves for the price of 10 latex gloves at Home Depot. Makes you use the things more often.
Now things like drill bits, saw blades and sandpaper is total crap. So it comes down to what you want.
I'm sorry Wagga but that is entirely off topic, The man was fined as a consequence of his actions and as you know no one responsible is ever punished for the things we discuss.
@Rob Dawg,
The guy reference in this lawnchair incident may not have been fined, thought the guy he was emulating (Larry Walters) was fined.
This guy went considerably further than Larry Walters, and his flight seemed to be better planned (for a lawnchair flight). I would still consider him a bit loopy though.
"But after he jumped out, the wind grabbed his chair, with his video recorder and the remaining balloons, and swept it away." What did he expect? Removed some weight from the chair.. now lighter..
Ho Ho Ho - It's Santa Flipper Clause
BJ - Sadly, Larry Walters later committed suicide.
Santa F. Clause
I was recently part of evaluating an order of over $1 Mil worth of boiler tubing. Both stainless steel and carbon steel components.
The order was placed with a very large boiler company. The carbon steel tubing is coming from Germany and the stainless steel is coming from China. The fabrication will be done in Mexico.
The award was based on pricing AND delivery. Delivery is March, 2008. Many companies NO BID due to delivery needed to soon or could not meet delivery.
Yes, I will have samples independantly analized for conformance to material specifications.
Food for thought.
The_Scum:
Hmmm, I know someone who might be in need of some superheater tubing
Suffered a low-water casualty.
Had to be towed through the Golden Gate.
Most embarrassing...and stoopid expensive.
Do they know lead times are 9 months to 1 year?
LMFAO!
I've been pricing and evaluating a lot of heavy industry components lately and that's the mantra.
We could have gotten the stainless from Italy at a similiar price if we wanted to wait until May, 2008 for it.
By the way, The order was being negotiated in JUNE so my 9months plus is valid.
We got this from ALL the big hitters in this industry. B & W, Alstom, B Power, BTA etc etc etc.
@Santa Flipper Clause
BJ - Sadly, Larry Walters later committed suicide.
After seeing your note, I looked up what he did after his flight. Kind of weird. He climbed in the San Gabriels and did work in the Angeles National Forest for the National Forest Service. Oddly, I have also done both, and during the same period. I may have actually run across him during that period without knowing who he was..
Ho Ho Ho - It's Santa Flipper Clause
@BJ --
Also, I believe that he was charged with flying without an aviation transponder, or something similar.
Santa F. Clause
um, since when is $7.01 (18.00 - 10.99) the same as $8.00?
Indeed. Demonstrates that although the tools may have been manufactured in some sweatshop in China, it was a product of the California public schools behind the marketing of the sale!
There's a Harbor Freight about 3 miles from my apartment. But personally, I avoid the cheap, off-brand name tools. I'd stick with Greenlee if I were in the market for a wrench set (I'm a purchasing agent for an electrical contractor and there is a tangible difference in quality according to our best guys in the field, not just my personal experience).
I withdraw my snark somewhat. According to their website, the normal cost of the set is $18.99, so it's poor proof-reading skills rather than poor math skills at fault. I still blame the CA public schools.
If you want to talk about the cost of shipping, you can buy an 8 ft polished granite countertop with bullnose for $55.
The ocean freight, from Thailand since that's what google found first...
http://www.boi.go.th/english/how/transportation_costs_including_fuel_and_freight_rates.asp
$2100 for a 40' container.
http://www.export911.com/e911/ship/dimen.htm
claims a 40' container can hold 60000 lbs (assuming the container itself and so on weights 7000 lbs).
60000/5 = 12000
$2100 / 12000 = 10c
Of course size may be the limiting factor I don't know the dimensions of what's being shipped.
Of course the price would go down as the quantity goes up too.
Interesting, I did not know slow boats where so cheap to ship on.
6:50
Ever want to see capitalism at it's finest, go to Hong Kong and look down upon the harbor anytime from a high rise. Thousands of little barges each with a hoist loading on the side of the jetties and going out to hundreds of ships. or look at the cargo facilities just before you get to the new airport. Like giant ant colonies.
Trucks come in from the mainland and then ship product out of Hong Kong.
You will see people filling and refilling containers everywhere, trying to get the most kit in a container.
The newspapers have every ship in town or coming to town and their destinations like we have baseball scores in our papers.
It is truely amazing!
H.
I think it's about $60 (for a big shipper) to have a container shipped across the Pacific. It's probably more than that to get it from LA to the East Coast, but ocean shipping is very cheap. You can get the best estimate of prices from the various public ship owners sites. Seaspan (SSW) does longer term leases of container ships.
Speaking of cheap goods from Asia, I recall a recent article in the Economist (last week or this week's) that was interviewing a textile factory owner in Latin America about a client's bid for T Shirts that was below his cost for materials. Since I doubt China can actually produce T-Shirts for less than Guetemala or Bolivia can produce yarn or bolt cotton, I'm wondering how long the Chinese can continue to subsidize the West.
When you add to that our trade of green paper for their goods, I can't see this eventually ending in something very similar to Japan (they've built an economy but it will take several decades of deflation to get it back in balance after a bubble pops).
Good deal on your wrenches. I decided to get some lifetime guaranteed ones after breaking more than a few of the last set. Still made in China, but they seem to be forged and relatively durable. They got all the brake nuts loosened (are we supposed to spell that losened now?) last time I was under the car.
Let us guess RobD, now LMP has told both Duane and you the details of today but that he has sworn you to secrecy to punish us for not liking him.
aaackk!!
So what happened in court yesterday??
Or are we supposed to be in "don't mention the war" mode, because things didn't go LossMitPunk's way.
Hmmmm??
thppttt!!
S_t_C
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